I remember years ago a my cousin was being "harrassed" by the elders in her hall about not going out in field service, being "wild" etc; My cousin was only 20 years old at the time and I think she just wanted to have some fun in her youth. My aunt who has been a JW's for over 40 years was extremely strict on my young cousin. I think my cousin just could not take it anymore so when the elders called her in for a committe meeting for the upteen time my cousin told me she just snapped and cursed all four of the elders out. She called all of them stupid, dumb bast------. She told me that one of the elders called her a apostate "bitch". They did not want to discuss anything further and told my cousin that she will be "disfellowshipped" for disrespecting the elder arrangement. My cousin said at this point she just did not care anymore. But I was wondering especially from ex-jw's elders out their can a person be Df'd for cursing out the elders or was this a made up law by my cousin's elders?
Can a person get Disfellowshipped for cursing out the elders?
by booker-t 8 Replies latest jw friends
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lola28
She could be disfellowshiped for two things 1. her unrepentant attitued 2. Unchristian like behavior (swearing)
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Cygnus
I would answer by saying it's entirely up to the discretion of the elders chosen to be on a judicial committee (likely not the same elders who were "cussed" at). Remember, too, people are not necessarily DF'd for wrongdoing, but their attitude and level of repentance and works of good faith. I have heard that about 20% of JWs who find themselves in some sort of trouble aren't DF'd but either publicly or privately reproved. From what little I know, I'd say that'll be the case here.
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outoftheorg
OH YEAH They sure can and often do.
When my daughter told me of her molestation at the hands of an elder, "her uncle" by marriage.
I went to the elders and the police. The statute of limitation had expired so I depended on the elders. When wbts leagal desk said to drop it, I told the elders they needed the s**t kicked out of them, it was quickly told to the elders in my cong.
I could tell they were out to get me, it was pretty clear by their actions. After I got tired enough of their conduct and pissed me off I told them what I thought of them.
I got the big df because of "fits of rage". They were right for once. I was truly enraged at the whole jw do nothing way of life, when it came to pedophiles.
About 12 yrs later the pedophile was finally df'd. Who knows how many more little girls were abused.
Strangly enough it was the pedophile's own daughter this time that told the elders, that so many sisters complained about him, that they ought to look into this again.
I have often wondered if maybe he had also abused her and this was why she squealed on him.
outoftheorg
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blondie
Pay Attention to the Flock (Unit 5A, page 96)
Fits of anger, violence. (Prov. 22:24, 25; Mal. 2:16; Gal.
5:20)Loose conduct. Term not restricted to sexual immorality.(Gal. 5:19, Ref.. Bi., ftn.; 2 Pet. 2:7, Ref.. Bi., ftn.; w83
3/15 p. 31; w73 9/15 pp. 574-6; it-2 p. 264)***
w73 9/15 pp. 574-576 Questions from Readers• What does the expression "loose conduct" as found at Galatians 5:19 mean?—U.S.A.
One might assume that this term (from the Greek word a·sel´gei·a) refers to conduct that is immoral but in a minor or not so serious way. This, however, is not the case according to the available evidence in Scripture and also in the ancient secular Greek writings in which this word appears. It is not limited to acts of sexual immorality. And, rather than relating to bad conduct of a somewhat petty or minor nature, it apparently describes acts that reflect a brazen attitude, one that betrays disrespect, disregard or even contempt for standards, laws and authority. The ‘looseness’ of the conduct, therefore, is not due principally to weakness but results from an attitude of disrespect, insolence or shamelessness.
In support of this we find that lexicons of the Greek language define a·sel´gei·a (and other forms of this word) as describing: "outrageous acts," "licentiousness, wanton violence," "insolence," "vulgar abuse," "brutal[ity]" (Liddell and Scott); "excess, intemperance, in any thing, e.g. language, conduct, insolence" (Robinson); "unbridled lust, . . . outrageousness, shamelessness" (Thayer); "wanton lawless insolence" (Trench). A New Testament Wordbook by Barclay says: "[A·sel´gei·a] is used by Plato in the sense of ‘impudence.’ . . . It is defined as ‘violence coupled with insult and audacity.’ . . . It is described as ‘the spirit which knows no restraints and which dares whatever caprice and wanton insolence suggest’."
Jewish historian Josephus, of the first century C.E., used the term (a·sel´gei·a) when describing pagan Queen Jezebel’s erecting a shrine of Baal in Jerusalem. This act was indeed a shocking outrage, one that brazenly flaunted public opinion and decency.
The use of a·sel´gei·a in secular Greek writings is paralleled in its usage in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The apostle Paul, for example, speaks of the people of the nations and says that, due to "the insensibility of their hearts," they came to be "past all moral sense, [giving] themselves over to loose conduct [a·sel´gei·a] to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness." (Eph. 4:17-19) The apostle Peter associates a·sel´gei·a with such practices of the nations as "lusts, excesses with wine, revelries, drinking matches, and illegal idolatries," things leading to a "low sink of debauchery." (1 Pet. 4:3, 4) And, in describing Lot’s distress over the acts of the people of Sodom, the apostle emphasizes the "law-defying" attitude of the Sodomites in their "loose conduct," and compares certain ones in his own day with them in being "daring, self-willed," ‘looking down on lordship,’ not fearing to "speak abusively" of glorious ones, and uttering "swelling expressions of no profit." (2 Pet. 2:7-10, 18) All these expressions well exemplify the flavor of the Greek term a·sel´gei·a as relating to shameless, wanton conduct.
Similarly the disciple Jude writes of ungodly men who used the undeserved kindness of God as "an excuse for loose conduct," and he stresses their disrespectful, disdainful and contemptuous attitude toward righteous authority. Not just their "defiling the flesh" in sexual and other immorality, but also their "disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones" all constituted "loose conduct." They were "animalistic men, not having spirituality."—Jude 4-8, 19.
Today the attitude described by the word a·sel´gei·a is very prominent in the world. Many young people cast aside all restraint, have no hesitancy in outraging public decency, insolently flouting authority and speaking abusively to parents and others. But not only young persons do so. The stage and motion-picture theaters and magazines openly present acts featuring not only public nudity and sexual intercourse, but also sadistic brutality along with foul, obscene speech. This all exemplifies "loose conduct" in the Scriptural sense of the term.
We may note, however, that "loose conduct" (a·sel´gei·a) is several times mentioned in combination with "fornication" (por·nei´a) and "uncleanness" (a·ka·thar·si´a). (2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19; compare Romans 13:13.) In what way do these terms differ?
Of the three, "uncleanness" (a·ka·thar·si´a) is the broadest. Unlike por·nei´a, for instance, it embraces not only sexual immorality but impurity of any kind, in speech, action or spiritual relationship. (Compare 1 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Corinthians 7:14; 2 Corinthians 6:17.) And, unlike a·sel´gei·a, this term’s application is not dependent on the motive or attitude of the one guilty of the uncleanness. "Uncleanness" also allows for a wide range of degree of seriousness or gravity. Just as clothing can have a light stain or can be thoroughly filthy, so too an individual’s "uncleanness" can be minor or grave. This term is basically distinctive in that it stresses the morally repugnant nature of the wrong conduct or condition.
"Fornication" (por·nei´a), on the other hand, is more limited, describing grossly immoral acts of a strictly sexual nature. While all por·nei´a, of course, is unclean, this particular Greek term emphasizes the illicit and lewd nature of the conduct, conduct such as one might find in a house of prostitution, though not necessarily committed in such place.
"Loose conduct" (a·sel´gei·a) is like "uncleanness" in not being restricted to sexual immorality, but it differs in that it lays emphasis on the wantonness and shameless insolence of the conduct. We see, then, that—though these terms all relate to wrongdoing and may at times overlap—each word has its own distinctive flavor, thrust or emphasis.
Pointing this out, Barclay’s A New Testament Wordbook quotes Bible and Greek-language scholar Lightfoot as saying that "a man may be ‘unclean’ (akathartos [adjective form of a·ka·thar·si´a]) and hide his sin, but the man who is aselges (the adjective [of a·sel´gei·a]) shocks public decency. Here is the very essense of aselgeia; the man in whose soul aselgeia dwells . . . does not care what people say or think so long as he can gratify his evil desire. . . . Most men have enough decency left to seek to hide their sin, but the aselges is long past that."
To illustrate this in a practical way: An engaged Christian couple might, on some occasion of showing affection toward each other, unintentionally go beyond the point of what is pure and decent. Though not committing what the Bible calls por·nei´a (gross sexual immorality), the engaged couple might, nevertheless, become guilty of a measure of "uncleanness," as by embracing in a very passionate way, or letting their hands drift into intimate body areas. They may feel ashamed of this and resolve not to do it again. Have they been guilty of "loose conduct" (a·sel´gei·a)?
Not in the full Bible sense of the word, for they were not deliberately and disdainfully flaunting righteous standards. Of course, if they willingly made a practice of such impure conduct, this would show a careless disregard for what is clean, the shameless disrespect described by a·sel´gei·a. So, too, a young man who, though having no honorable intentions of getting married, selfishly engages in lovemaking and ‘heavy petting’ with a girl—or perhaps with one girl after another—is manifesting the wanton greed of Scripturally defined "loose conduct." He does not care how much harm or hurt he causes. The same could be said of a girl taking a similar course.
Those charged with spiritual oversight in Christian congregations do well, therefore, to distinguish between these Scriptural terms. The decision of Christian elders as to how to handle cases of wrongdoing can be affected by such understanding. It can help them to grasp more clearly the comparative degree of gravity of the actions involved. The need for their using sound judgment, for their weighing circumstances, situations and attitudes, is also shown to be of great importance.
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theinfamousone
the elders can and will do whatever they want... even if it wasnt "lawful" they will make up their rules on the go... its retarded, and i could have cared less if they did df me...
its funny, i did much worse than that, even punched one of em in the gut at the hall and never got diffed, they just liked me i guess... hypocrisy...
the infamous one
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Darth Yhwh
Damn Blondie, how do you do it? Well, I certainly know where to go when I want to know what the WTBS has to say on any given issue. LOL
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blondie
Darth, I just remember an ex-JW posting a few years back that either he or his brother were DF'd for loose conduct, and he cited this article to show it could be for more than sexual things, talking abusively to the elders.
That is one of the interesting things on JWD, somebody knows something about everything.
Blondie
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atypical
It's sort of like giving an attitude to a policeman. Even if you haven't done anything else wrong, he will find something to nail you on just for daring to challenge his authority.