religion

by roymond 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • roymond
    roymond

    throughout jesus' life, the only thing he ever reacted to in either a judgemental way or angrily, was religion. he got angry enough with the people in the temple, whowere persecuting the poor and stopping people coming to god, that he whipped them and kicked them out the temple. indeed there are plenty of examples where jesus calls people hypocrites, for demanding rules and not following them themselves. surely this is because, as none of us are perfect, and such religous rules cannot be followed entirely, and as such we must live in god's grace and not religious judgement.

    religion is a system of beliefs from which a rountine is based. religion is a list of absolute laws from which you have no choice. the bible, at least from what i've read and understand, is the promotion of choice. indeed when jesus says "do unto others as you do unto them", and that the whole of the jewish law is summed up into the first two commandments, love god and love your neighbour, there seems to be an immense amount of freedom with this. personally, i believe this was the intent of jesus' life. the purpose of his life. the jewish context was where sin had to be transferred from themselves to an animals - thorugh killing it. jesus became the ultimate sacrifice and in doing so, well to put in jesus' words - "i have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it". in other words, he has abolished religion in place of a relationship.

    in a previous post someone gave their experience of a woman who cut in line at a store, saw her pentagon (or some other sign of the occult or wiccan - something that dientified her as a witch), and had a go at her, screaming all the while, "Jesus loves you". this, i believe, to be religion, in that you are forcing other people to conform to it, not out of love, as jesus did, but out of fear. in other words people are forced to believe, don't understand why, and as a result as soon as they are questioned or begin to question themselves, they find no substance. belief is a chioce, religion doesn't have to be - as a result they often become prejudiced to anything the world sees as religion, because of their own experience of religion. christianity is not a religion, but purely a relationship. if everything was based on religion - "an eye for an eye", a list of rules which must be obeyed or you're punished, than taking the example of king david, he would be remembered as a sexually immoral murderer. his actions in effectively killing the husband of a woman he liked the look of, would be seen as disgustingly immoral. only his relationship with god allowed his forgiveness. i think this is a prime example of how we are not human doings, but human beings. in a religion, your actions count as everything, whereas a relationship is based on who you are. in a religion therefore, your actions define who you are, whereas your personality, etc. defines who you are in a relationship. this is not to say that you can do whatever you want, and you will be forgiven, indeed the opposite, you must love god and your neighbour, but of course this takes time, it is not something easily acquired, but takes effort - but then the rewards are greater for something which takes more effort. indeed if you love god and your neighbour (this defined as all of humanity in the parable of the good samaritan), than you will want the best for them. throuhg lvoving god, if he is your "counsellor", "rock", or any other adjective from the bible, than you will know what the best is, and therefore loving your neighbour, will result in you wanting the best for them. put the to together and you will know what the best is, and want the best for people.

    my point is that religion judges, whereas a relationship forgives. to wrap up a very long-winded post a religioin is based on rules, which you are judged by. as none can attain to the levels god demands, we are all subject to god's grace. indeed when jesus says "you will be judged by the measure you judge by", surely then if you judge other people based on these rules, you are indeed as jesus says "hypocrites" when he saw these situations. this is not to say that you are bad people, indeed that would be judging again, so perhaps it is fair to say then you can judge the action but not the person, in that you can say the action is wrong but the person is precious. indeed this seems the message of much of jesus' works, in that each person is so valuable to god that jesus would have died to save each and every individual. therefore to go back tot he other example of the woman who was screaming "jesus loves you", indeed jesus loves everyone, but he loved them and gave them a choice. he gave them advice, and didn't force himself on others. indeed in the whole of his life, the bible reports only three instances where he directly answered the questions. jesus wasn't interested in answers, he was interested in people. so perhaps we should then take his approach, in that when he was faced with an adulterous woman (indeed the man was left alone by the religious people - interesting), but when faced with adultery, something that the law defined as deserving of being stoned to death, jesus says "he who has not sinned castt he first stone". indeed there was someone present who fell into that category, but jesus never threw a stone. he forgave.

  • googlemagoogle
    googlemagoogle

    welcome to the board, roymond!

    you say jesus never threw a stone and loves everyone, but what do you think about the son of man coming with a sword and armies of angels as depicted in revelation?

    btw: to live a good life and treat other people well doesn't require the bible or any other "sacred" text, a religion or a (relationship with [a]) god[s].

  • roymond
    roymond

    i never meant to say that you could only lead a good life in a faith.

    with the reference you made to revelations, does it say that with that swords and armies he will kill men, or does it, as i suspect, say that if there is any feeting it will be between jesus and his army of angels, will fight satan and his army of demons?

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Hey Roy,

    Interesting post. Especially because it was my wife (FreedomFrog aka Gina) that had the experience you alluded to.

    to go back tot he other example of the woman who was screaming "jesus loves you", indeed jesus loves everyone, but he loved them and gave them a choice. he gave them advice, and didn't force himself on others.

    Thinking about this woman just kills me. People like her are so anti-Jesus, it's amazing to me that they can't see it. Have they read the Bible, one wonders?

    Is your overall point that Jesus is worthy of being followed, but his followers need to pay more attention to how he lived and work harder to imitate him? While I don't agree with that, I *would* agree that the world would calm down considerably if the more vocal Christians would just sit back and enjoy their faith and not go about preaching it and shoving its morality down the throat of others.

    Dave

  • tall penguin
    tall penguin

    Welcome to the board Roymond. And thank you for your very intelligent and thoughtful thread. Keep posting.
    tall penguin

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Welcome Roymond.

    You've essentially defined religion as you see it. I'm not sure that your definition is universal or accurate. There is much more to "religion" than laws and judgementalism. I've been to many groups that identify with various "religions" that are very liberal, tolerant and non-judgemental. Perhaps you should expand your experiance base a little and take off those tinted glasses.

    Just for kicks, here's another view point!

    Carmel

    "To most men who have not heard the message of this teaching, religion seems an outward form, a pretence, merely a seal of respectability. Some priests are in holy office for no other reason than to gain their living. They themselves do not believe in the religion they pretend to teach. Would these men lay down their lives for their faith? Ask a Christian of this kind to deny Christ in order to save his life, and he will do it.

    The religion of God has two aspects in this world. The spiritual (the real) and the formal (the outward). The formal side changes, as man changes from age to age. The spiritual side which is the Truth, never changes. The Prophets and Manifestations of God bring always the same teaching; at first men cling to the Truth but after a time they disfigure it. The Truth is distorted by man-made outward forms and material laws. The veil of substance and worldliness is drawn across the reality of Truth.

    Each time God sends a Great One to us we are given new life, but the Truth each Manifestation brings is the same. The Truth never changes but man's vision changes. It is dulled and confused by the complication of outward forms.

    The Truth is easy to understand although the outward forms in which it is expressed bewilder the intelligence. As men grow they see the futility of man-made forms and despise them. Therefore many leave the churches, because the latter often emphasize the external only. "

    (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 56)

  • roymond
    roymond

    firstly, to comment on tolerant religions - fair enough i'm sure there are, i was speaking of "christian religion" in that christianity is not a religion, it is not a set of rules, and any attempt to make it such, any attempt to make it so absolute has resulted in dire consequences. take catholicism for example, people used to have to pay to have their sins forgiven. ridiculously unjust wars were started from a catholic perspective of we are right and you should obey our teachings. while i'm sure there are many tolerant religions, i was wanting to stick within christianity, if you have any examples of this please tell me, though from my experience any relgion within chrsitainity, any attempt to bring an absolute beyond what jesus said himself summed up all laws - love god and your neighbour, is something which will result in many flaws, be imperfect, and cause damage to people. also, take the example of the countless people who when faced with a gun have claimed they love jesus, have stood firm in their face. the most popular example being the girl from the columbine massacre, can't remember her name, but she was basically tortured by the two boys until they said, are you still a christian? she said yes and they shot her dead. there are plenty more examples, proving that while some peoples' faith may not be very strong, this is not evident in all peoples.

    my point on this, to go to almostatheists reply, was that jesus never judged anyone, and that when jesus came and gave us a way to come back to God, he didn't do this through people's actions, trying to justify your own way into heaven, etc. but through grace. u2's song called grace i think highlights many of the great things about this. the point being that no person can act in accrodance with what perfection (God) requires. however, our imperfection is forgivable, and as such if we repent (this being confess, apologise and turn away from our sins) we are reconcilable with God.

    the point of this being that one person cannot turn to the other and claim to be better than them. no matter how good a person is, they will never reach God's perfection, and as such are ultimately in the same boat as the rest of us. this meaning that we cannot judge each other, indeed this is evident when it is written in matthew i think, that "judge and you will be judged", "you will be judged by the measure with which you judge". this meaning, to me at least, that if you judge someone on their imperfections, it is to judge your own too, for as no-one is perfect, we all have cracks in our personality, and as such if you are not complete how can you complain at others for being incomplete too?

    perhaps it is relevant to relay another of u2's songs, peace on earth, to this argument. in one bit, bono sings "and you become a monster, so the monster will not break you". take the example of the woman who yelled "jesus loves you". to her, the monster is paganism. whether rightly or wrongly, she feels threatened, attacked by this. as such she will tend to respond defensively rather than actually listen to whoever she is threatened by. this is true of anyone who refuses to listen to the other side of any argument. indeed when faced with someone who is shouting jesus loves you, demanding your conformity, than the natural response to this attack, is to defend. the best form of defence being attack, you attack right back. it's an endless cycle of people attacking each other. in other words, the only thing that can break this cycle is grace. inded to go back to u2's song grace, "grace travels outside of karma". we can justify defending ourselves when we feel attack, but then how can we justify attacking someone else because we feel threatened? only grace can break this cycle. take for example a guy i know. basically in so much trouble with the police that he was nearly locked away. he'd go round to his grandmothers drunk just to shout at her, it got so bad that the police stationed someone permanently round there to protect his grandmother. someone comes along and shows the boy some grace, shows him forgiveness, and he changes. he sees something different, he isn't constantly threatened by this person, but sees a way out of the cycle. now he serves at a church, doing security and in so many other ways. he's been transformed, simply because someone gave him a chance.

    my ultimate point, is that rather than judging each other, criticising each other, we should realise that in the end none of us are perfect, and we all fall short of God's requirements. rather than threatening others when we are threatened, rather than becoming a monster to stop the monster breaking us, perhaps we should try and understand why the monster exists, show the monster some love, how can you show love if you've never been shown love? how can you care for somene if you've never been cared for? perhaps rather than talking all the time, we should take marilyn manson's advice on this, that rather than trying to convince someone else all the time, never taking the time to listen to anyone else, we should listen to other people. indeed, if you've never been listened to, how can you listen? if you're judging all the time, how can anyone break your prejudices if you wont let them? in the whole of the gospels, jesus directly answered 3 questions. perhaps from this we can take that rather than trying to answer questions and sticking to an absolute answer, we should discuss, we should talk and listen to each other. "he who has not sinned cast the first stone". indeed if this was followed i don't think there would be much conflict going on.

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    roymond, you seem to have it all together...are you a student of the Bible?

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    welcome to the board roy!

    i enjoyed your write up.

    jesus was the second greatest bible apostate of all time, IMO. i even think he was an atheist. after all, he didn't believe in any other gods but himself.

    cheers,

    TS

  • roymond
    roymond

    lol. ye i get what ur saying.

    i don't really have it all together to be honest. i'm not a student of the bible as such, though i read it. i do philosophy, politics, media and english lit at a level in england - the next step up from gcses (high school grades - not sure what they are in the usa). anyhoo, my point is that the more i study the less seems to fit. arguing philosophically, theologically or in any other way-ally doesn't provide answers, but instead only creates more questions. personally i think exploring these is good, but the result is that all absolutes are broken (while i personally approve of this it leaves a great sense of insecurity with no absolutely true statement to fall back on). indeed the further i study the more i am convinced that god is the only absolute, in that his character is the only thing that does not change. even despite this how he treats each individual is different, in relation to who they are as a person and where they are in their "journey". indeed the more i study, the less i know. i mean that the more i study the less seems to have a solid foundation on which it is truth. in other words the foundation of my personal belief is not in a philosophical argument, but in the sense that i just know. i just know god is real, and as such it is a belief - and as such each person's faith is always a belief.

    to explore the questions surrounding this is great, i enjoy it very much, although at the end of the day no truth will come of it only endless questioning and the answer that we ultimately don't know and cannot trust anything except that which we choose to trust.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit