questions for current elders or former....

by ?me? 7 Replies latest jw friends

?me?

<div>here are a few questions/observations that i would like more info on, but i do not have the guts to ask my 3 relatives that are elders (i always feel that they and the local body will hold it against me...)

1. if the pioneer school is SOOOOO great and helpful why don't they just invite anyone who would like to improve in the ministry to attend?

2. if i am good enough to pray for 20 people and read for them at the cbs, why can't i count the attendance at the wt or the tms? or do the mikes, or help with the literature? even if i am good enough to help build kindgdom halls?

3. why don't they every tell the publishers all these fancy rules about what is a judical matter or not, do they really want you to come to them every time you may have messed up?

4. technically you can not get in trouble for kissing someone else if you are married? am i correct(that is how it has worked with my wife and i)

5. occasional smoking (once every few years) is not grounds for judical actions?

6. gambling- it is not wrong unless you are "greedy" the flock book said to stay out of it unless sprituality is in danger or affected? is it basically don't ask, don't tell?

ok that is enough for now
misspeaches
Hello! Welcome!
I was never an elder just a lowly sister. Oh what scum of the congregation us sisters were/are. However I would like to have a shot at your questions...
if the pioneer school is SOOOOO great and helpful why don't they just invite anyone who would like to improve in the ministry to attend? First of all it isn't really that great or helpful. They tell rank & file members that it is. Make them feel like they are missing out on something. Its just another tactic to try make people spend more time selling books for them
if i am good enough to pray for 20 people and read for them at the cbs, why can't i count the attendance at the wt or the tms? or do the mikes, or help with the literature? even if i am good enough to help build kindgdom halls? Priveleges. Another carrot they like to dangle. Do more do more do more. Or you won't get any privileges. As for being able to pray at the bookstudy are you short on baptised guys in your group? Sometimes they just don't have enough and concessions are made for these.
why don't they every tell the publishers all these fancy rules about what is a judical matter or not, do they really want you to come to them every time you may have messed up? Yes they really do. They want you to come tell them everything you do wrong. Because thats how they keep control. That and scare tactics.
technically you can not get in trouble for kissing someone else if you are married? am i correct(that is how it has worked with my wife and i) I don't know about this one.
occasional smoking (once every few years) is not grounds for judical actions? If its extremely rare and you are sorry for it then you are not displaying greed. Therefore no j/c. But you will be counselled.
gambling- it is not wrong unless you are "greedy" the flock book said to stay out of it unless sprituality is in danger or affected? is it basically don't ask, don't tell? its that whole greed thing again. see answer above.
finally how often did you suspect something was up but did not pursue it? especially with friends or relatives I believe hook line and sinker. I stopped because I felt so inadequate. and I couldn't live up to the standards.
Wasanelder Once

Here ya go:
1. if the pioneer school is SOOOOO great and helpful why don't they just invite anyone who would like to improve in the ministry to attend?
Well now, you wouldn’t want to cheapen the experience by allowing sincere publishers who only do a paltry 10 hours a month to attend, now would you?

2. if i am good enough to pray for 20 people and read for them at the cbs, why can't i count the attendance at the wt or the tms? or do the mikes, or help with the literature? even if i am good enough to help build kindgdom halls?
God works in mysterious ways. You have to fit into the profile to do such wondrous things.
3. why don't they every tell the publishers all these fancy rules about what is a judicial matter or not, do they really want you to come to them every time you may have messed up?
Just keep‘em coming is their motto. Really its in all the magazines, just read em.
4. technically you can not get in trouble for kissing someone else if you are married? am i correct(that is how it has worked with my wife and i)
Kiss for hello, kiss for comfort = OK Kiss for sexy feeling? = preadultry. You’re playing with fire Mister
5. Occasional smoking (once every few years) is not grounds for judicial actions?

Light up and you’re on your way out. Demons will swarm you and elders too.

6. Gambling- it is not wrong unless you are "greedy" the flock book said to stay out of it unless spirituality is in danger or affected? is it basically don't ask, don't tell? Ok, you asked, now they know! They will be watching!

finally how often did you suspect something was up but did not pursue it? Especially with friends or relatives
Never, got it? Never I say.
Confession

Okay, you've read a couple of responses to your questions. Here are mine.
1. if the pioneer school is SOOOOO great and helpful why don't they just invite anyone who would like to improve in the ministry to attend?
Simple: It's a school designed for those who are in the fulltime ministry. Those I knew who attended seemed to enjoy it very much. They were sad when it ended. I mean we could find fault here, but the idea that they would have a somewhat more advanced experience for those who have committed themselves to giving considerably more of their time than the others is not an unusual thing.

2. if i am good enough to pray for 20 people and read for them at the cbs, why can't i count the attendance at the wt or the tms? or do the mikes, or help with the literature? even if i am good enough to help build kindgdom halls?
As an elder I would have explained to you how we were a very organized people. I would have quoted the scripture about how all things should "take place decently and by arrangement." This scripture is used to explain why they have carte blanche to create whatever rule they want. Basically some men in Brooklyn, at some point, defined all of the "privileges" in the congregation and decided which ones needed to be handled by elders, ministerial servants, strong publishers, less-than-strong-but-seems-like-he-could-work-out-one-day publishers, etc. They would probably tell you that the more important a privilege, the more imperative it is to make sure whomever is carrying it out will not detract from Jehovah's name.As a former elder and part of a four-generation JW family, I have come to loathe the concept of the legalistic, authoritarian religious organization. But the idea that they may create a system of graduated "privileges" is really not that big a deal compared to the horribly egregious things there are about the Watchtower Society.

3. why don't they every tell the publishers all these fancy rules about what is a judical matter or not, do they really want you to come to them every time you may have messed up?
I think you'll find most of the rules can be found within the pages of the Watchtower if you want to do the research. But, yes, the infinitesimal aspects will only be found in "Pay Attention to Yourselves," the elders' book--and in the occasional meetings the CO has with elders twice a year. This is where things can get really complicated--and where the entire concept of centralized religious authority gets out of hand. The rules aren't all that fancy. They are however many and complex. I mean, just think of it. They try to act as the end-all/be-all. God's official ecclesiastical tribunal identifying, classifying and delineating punishment for all forms of wrongdoing. In the beginning they probably had a fairly simple set of rules. Then every year a new situation would arise in the congregation that didn't quite fit into those rules. The answer? More rules, of course.
I have to believe throughout WTS history there have been many, many individuals who, when faced with the enormity and futility of such a task, must have dropped their hands and said, "Come on! Brothers, this has become like trying desperately to grip the sand while it slips inevitably through our fingers."But I have found that individuals who find their way onto boards, committees and "bodies" tend to be of the Guardian temperament (Myers-Briggs.) They're the ones who usually like the idea of rules. And the guy who argues in favor of simplification is almost always outvoted by people who believe such simplification is actually a threat to the harmony of the people they represent--not to mention an erosion of the body of laws on which they've worked so hard for years. (Think Pharisees.)

4. technically you can not get in trouble for kissing someone else if you are married? am i correct(that is how it has worked with my wife and i)
It's true that a married person kissing someone other than his or her mate is not considered "gross wrongdoing" or "fornication" by the WTS. And while such a thing would usually be considered a violation of a mate's trust within the marriage, I have to say, I'm really not in favor of giving any more authority to the WTS than they already take. This should be the business of your mate and you. The sad thing is that not only will the WTS not consider even repeated things like this as grounds for divorce--but neither will they allow YOU to consider it as such, making you remain in such a marriage for the rest of your life, under penalty of disfellowshipping.

5. occasional smoking (once every few years) is not grounds for judical actions?
Basically, all they need is to believe that you are not sorry about it. If you slip from time to time, how really can they nail you for it? But if you're doing it much more frequently, they may use this as evidence that you are not really repentant about it. Of course things can vary so much from body to body, somewhere someone WILL nail you for limited slips.

6. gambling- it is not wrong unless you are "greedy" the flock book said to stay out of it unless sprituality is in danger or affected? is it basically don't ask, don't tell?
Don't ask, don't tell? Probably. When I served, this just didn't come up too much. If a person was playing the lottery, they probably were able to hide it, so no one ever found out. If they went to a casino, it would be unlikely they'd bump into any other JWs. And if they did, those other JWs would be in every bit as much trouble as they--so, again, nothing ever comes out. If it's a situation in which it becomes known in the congregation--or someone comes forward to complain about the detrimental effects his or her mate's gambling is having on the family...then it might come up and be dealt with by the body.

finally how often did you suspect something was up but did not pursue it? especially with friends or relatives
Having suspicions can happen all the time. Honestly, if elders were to pursue everything they "suspected," they'd be spending more time away from their families and in more committee meetings than they are already. And that's usually quite a lot. It's true that there are some Pharisaical elders who seem never to tire, and who love to surgically root out wrongdoing. But, to tell the truth, I'm pretty sure they're in the minority. Elders will usually act on something when they have no other choice. That's not to say that, when they see someone heading for trouble, they won't possibly try to head it off at the pass, but normally? They'd much rather be at home.
katiekitten

Heres a few questions id like to ask my counsin who is an elder, but darent because I dont want to (a) make him cry (b) make him hate me (c) make him cut me off
How come you selling pyramid schemes to members of the congregation isnt wrong?
How come you watching violent 18 rated videos is OK?
How come Arthur and Ronnie and Mike (all elders) keeping in touch with their disfellowshipped children secretly is OK?
How come you are always too busy to speak to or help or visit your family but you always have time to drive your mum to the meetings?
When Armageddon doesnt come by 2034 will you be sad that you havent had any children?
LittleToe

How come you selling pyramid schemes to members of the congregation isnt wrong?

That's old light, from back in the day when Russel peddled his wares. Pyramid selling, along with Avon, is now banned in all Kingdum Hells. The only exception is if you are an Elder's wife and you're just delivering goods. As long as no money exchanges hands, or it's kept discreetly in brown paper envelopes, it's all good.
How come you watching violent 18 rated videos is OK?
It's not. However if the movie happens to be 18 rated and it's a really good story, it might be permissible to one's conscience. Remember to fast-forward the "bad bits" and ensure your "weaker brother" is not offended. It's all good.
How come Arthur and Ronnie and Mike (all elders) keeping in touch with their disfellowshipped children secretly is OK?
Jah sees everything, my dear. He knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake. Otherwise three said Elders will forma JC and oust your butt! Anyhow, it all good because it's "necessary family business" to occasionally buy your adult child a milkshake! Oh and Elders can "shepherd", so don't let them catch your ass buying milkshakes!
How come you are always too busy to speak to or help or visit your family but you always have time to drive your mum to the meetings?
This is clearly applying the principle of putting Kindum interests first to the exclusion of ~~bird food~~ all else. Have you never heard of "corban"?
When Armageddon doesnt come by 2034 will you be sad that you havent had any children?
No. Drooling senility and diapers will be the new fashion. Praise Gawd!
katiekitten

Thank you its all clear to me now , and I can maintian the precious relationship I have with my cousin, which amounts to saying 'hello, how are you then?' once every seven or eight years at family funerals.
LittleToe

Of course!!!
The rules weren't made for the likes of him. As an Elder he can choose to exchange empty platitudes and perfunctory gestures of familial cordiality, without recourse. It's a "shepherding" moment that should be truly cherished.
Oh how blessed, to be disciplined by Jah's loving corrugated thong!

questions for current elders or former....

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