Don't rely on Money for Retirement - W 8/15/01

by Thirdson 9 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Thirdson

  The three articles in the Watchtower of 8/15/01 on the life of Abraham take a real stretch of a Biblical story in order to impose Watchtower rules. On page 27, paragraph 8 the Watchtower tries to make that point that many JWs inflict themselves with many trials because they strive for material riches. That may be true but equally many face trials just trying to make a living or are trying to cope with retirement on a very limited income.
  

  Abraham's faith in a future "city," or divine government, helped him not to rely on riches. Would we not be wise to do the same?

  To say that people should not rely on riches is utter nonsense when all of us rely on “riches” (a subjective term) and when we retire who else is going to look after us? Not the Watchtower Society!

  Abraham may given up a home (with indoor plumbing apparently) and lived in tents but I think that was akin to retiring to a $100,000 RV and cruising around the US. Not a real home but not a bad life either. Abraham was a wealthy nomad. Nomadic people still exist today and can be relatively wealthy. The Mongols under Genghis Khan were incredibly wealthy, and an unstoppable power. Abraham was powerful enough to raise an army from his own nomadic tribe and had enough animals in his vast herds and a big enough drain on the local ecology to cause fighting amongst the herders. I don’t think Abraham lacked for much materially and he didn’t have to flog magazines every week to be God’s “friend”.

  Yes, I am sure he awaited the real “city” but he cared for his needs and those of his family without having to beg for welfare from the state.

  I guess my comments wouldn’t go over very well at the Watchtower study but I can’t help seeing the Watchtower in a whole new light.

  Thirdson

  'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
• 

  VM44

  Hi Thirdson,

  Good post.
  Are those three articles "study" articles?

  Abraham being extremly wealthy is important to point out. I smile when I think
  that Rutherford was going to have him "share" a house with King David and others.

  ==VM44
• 

  jayhawk1

  That is absurd to say Abraham was not rich. I wish I could be as poor as he was. Excep I hate sheep.

  "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
• 

  Thirdson

  VM44,

  There are three study article in this issue, all about Abraham.

  Jayhawk,

  The Watchtower admits he was rich, at least after leaving Haran. the comment is

  "Clearly, this was due to God's blessing" and "he [God] is faithful to his promise to provide for the needs of those who 'leave homes, brothers, or sisters' for the sake of the kingdom (Mark 10:29, 30)"

  Note the any odd scripture added for support!

  Even worse Abraham's test to leave his home is similar to JWs who have to put up with "disfellowshipped relatives, who might try to lure us in to unwholesome association" Page 16 para 7.

  I didn't know Abraham had disfellowshipped relatives unless you count the ones he left behind!

  Thirdson

  'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
• 

  Gopher

  Thirdson,

  Welcome back! Good post, and LOL at the phrase "Abraham learned not to rely on riches" bla bla bla.

  That last part, the slam at Disfellowshipped people, came way out of left field. Of course Abraham didn't shun any of his relatives. Of course he had to put up with the local people who didn't worship his God, but how that ties into "putting up" with disfellowshipped ones I'll never understand!

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
• 

  Englishman

  Thirson,

  I think that the reason that JW's are regarded generally as lazy-arses is due to them being conditioned negatively towards money in general.

  Money is simply a tool, a token given in return for work done. The harder one works the more tokens (in theory) one should have.

  Simple.

  Englishman.

  ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
• 

  ZazuWitts

  Thirdson,

  Welcome back; glad to hear you had a nice holiday.

  Your post really 'grabbed' me. I post frequently on another forum - not 'religion related' - deals with social issues and responsibilities.

  A month or so ago, one of our regular frequent posters, just 'vanished' for a couple of weeks. Imagine my surprise, upon her return to the forum, to learn she and hubby had been away to see her mother-in-law, who had tried to commit suicide. There was a certain 'something' she said that made me think the mother-in-law was a JW. So, I e-mailed her and this was, indeed, confirmed.

  This is the spot where your post re the WT article comes in. It seems the JW
  MIL, had become clinically depressed. She is a 67 year-old woman who has pioneered all of her life. Her JW husband is 70, self-employed, and has been suffering ill-health. Therefore, a drastic drop in income. They have no savings, no retirement benefits, save Social Security. The JW husband, has apparently had a fairly good income, but they have spent freely over the years. New four-door auto every two years, three 'upgrades' in housing in the last 15 years. Despite there being only the two of them. The daughter-in-law said, when her husband (left the JW's at 18, went to college on merit scholarship) dared question their lifestyle or retirement plans...well, you know...Armageddon is 'just around the corner.' And, 'we need the nice car to look 'proper' in service...and the extra space (5 bedrooms) for CO and other JW visitors.'

  TO CAP IT OFF, when they were at the hospital, two elders came to visit.
  Their 'loving parting comment' --"Of course, we will have to take you off the Pioneer list." The JW patient, then burst into tears, and the elders just walked out!!!

  The US has an aging population, in general. How many elderly JW's will find themselves in similar economic situations? Too, too, many, I think.
  Larc and I are aware that his true-blue JW sister and husband, both in their late 50's, have virtually NOTHING set aside for upcoming retirement - which is factually 'just around the corner.'

  My sis-in-law, actually told me in a phone conversation, that one CO told her even a 401K was akin to 'gambling.'
  They also live in a 5 bedroom home, despite the fact that their one child, is married, and and been 'gone' for over 10 years. My brother-in-law is not in good health...has many problems, and larc's sister has a tendency towards depression. It's going to be a crushing blow when they have to readjust due to economic reality...move into more modest housing, give up frequent new cars, cruises every year.

  It will be 'harder' on the 'good' life ones, than, say, an individual who has pioneered, worked part-time, has little in the way of material possessions and is accustomed to a frugal lifetyle.

  Articles such has the one you cited, designed to foster all levels of pioneering, service activity (i.e., sell publications, recruit) to keep the organization going, really, really, pain me to the core. We know the WTBTS
  will take no responsibility for the financial and emotional hardships they contribute to by such articles.

  Will Jehovah provide in such cases?, are they truly blessed? Apparently not, eh?
• 

  ozziepost

  Not to be overlooked is that Abraham was not one of God's chosen nation so it doesn't fit in the analogy of loyalty to God's organisation today.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "Evil is the absence of empathy"
  Movie (2000), Nuremberg
• 

  JT

  When it comes to money i recall JR Brown giving a talk up in Harlem and he had this Line in his talk that he would use and everyone would fall out laughing- yet us dumb blacks didn't get it-

  he use to say "Money can't buy happiness, but it can ease the Pain"

  well he should know he hob knobs around the world with Larry Gramham of Gramham Central Station Fame and drives a "Q45"

  when he got this car alot of the bethelites went off about "How it must look" you see a top of line Q45 like he drives will set you back around $45-$50,000 - now how in the Hell can a guy making $90.00 a month afford a car like that

  so don't tell me there ain't money in religion

  in the black jw community the CO and DO get HOOKED UP- and it is by some of the Pooriest jw - when i was in Harlem - The Black Capitol of America=- smile the little old poor sisters living in the Projects would dig deep into their bosom and bring out thier last little roll of money and slap his wife's hand with big bucks

  i recall just the elder body alone would give him $500- they had a thing where they would pass a hat among the elders.

  About a year before i stepped aside in 87 i was in charge of contributions for the CA- we were in the back room counting money- i went over to the Assembly Overseer office and there were about 13-15 elders and they were taking up a Private collection for John Williams a black bro from Guyana- a super speaker- who actuall got the shaft while i was at bethel- he used to work in the Treasures office the right hand man to Grant Suiter and then all of a suddden he got the shaft down to "Shipping" in the 360 Furman building

  but on the outside of Bethel he was still one of the most sought after black bethel speakers at the Big House, but the kind of black speakers was JR Brown- when i was handling the speakers for my hall in NY i asked JR about giving a talk- he was known among the black brothers a the Society's version of "Louis Farakann" he has got to be the most powerful speaker black or white at bethel in my view and the view of many black bethelites- you would not go to sleep-

  all the bethelites in his Hall and even some of the local elders when they came to your hall to give a talk SOUNDED AND HAD THE MANNERISM OF JR.
  so some of those guys have money out the Ying Yang

  some of you may recall this guy named Harley Miller - his exp is in the wt - a PETTY OFFICIER IN THE NAVY

  anyway one day the housekeeper put his mail in our room by accident and my many had just recieved like 3 or 4 statements from at that time EF HUtton, Bear Sterns and Prudential and someother brokerage house

  i could tell what it was cause my roomate and i held it up to the light- and i thought to myself THIS BRO GOT INVESTMENTS LIVING HERE AT BETHEL I WAS A DUMBA$$ i should have realized something right then and there but i didn't SHAME ON ME

  JAMES
• 

  Thirdson

  Thanks for the "welcome backs".

  My father had nothing saved for retirement until the last 12 years of his working life when he changed jobs and joined an electrical utility. The company pension plan combined with the share offering given to employees when the nationally owned company was privatized means my parents have a little more than the state pension. They are lucky!

  To be honest, I was just the same as others brought up believing the "new system" was just around the corner. I declined an investment/retirement plan 15 years ago telling the guy that I didn't believe the world's banking system was going to last much longer. (I was so You Knowish!) I doubt the UK government will give me a pension for the 16 years I was paying taxes...they don't let me vote in UK elections. I nearly have enough points with the US dept of social security to qualify for Medicare when I am old but otherwise what I expect to retire on is my own investments.

  The ever increasing delay in "the end" is going to cause serious problems for the aging members (as Zazu related) of the JW unless they wise-up to the reality that the WTS's promises are not worth a dime.

  Thirdson

  'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'