Intimacy

lazuli

My ex-bf and I, he's a baptized JW and I'm a study, never had sex during our relationship. However, we dis have intimacy, meaning that we did everythin else but penetration, I know how bad this sounds, but we really did do anything you could do without there being penetration, so we were very intimate. I remeber that when we got together in the first place he mentioned to me once that he wouldn't have dated me if I wasn't a virgin. So now I'm thinking, oh and he's the only guy that I've had any sort of intimacy with, if what we did counts as fornication, or if now I'm not clean or suitable or another guy thats a JW. If I do get baptized and want to marry a JW, would this be an obstalce, what would the elders say if I told them about this? Does anybody know what would happen? I know that if you fornicate with someone you pretty much end up marrying them, but does this apply???

prophecor

Loose Lips.....

codeblue

this is not true in the JW world...........just be cause you are "loose" doesn't guarantee marriage......

I would move on from this JW guy........ he will probably marry an elder's daughter to gain "status".....

codeblue

If a guy wants a virgin......why is he being "loose" with you and you are a study?

Let's think about this for a few minutes........

I wouldn't trust this guy....

Go date a non JW........who has good character from a good family...

Go to college and have a life....

Then decide who you will marry.

Vivamus

Well, erm ... what you're describing is porneia, as they so love calling it. You could get DF for it, should you be baptised.

But, it's your body, and it's none of anybody business. I would not go about telling everyone this, and by everyone, I mean the elders. When you get another BF, and you feel like telling him this, speak about it. But keep in mind that JW's are rather tight about these matters. I did have a girlfriend who married and she wasn't a virgin. Her husband didn't want to talk about it, but he did know (before getting married to her).

FlyingHighNow

Honey, stay far away from any man with that attitude. My guy has the opposite attitude and it's helped me a lot. Get rid of any guy with that double standard hang up. If anything, a guy should want a lady who is as interested in sex as him. It should turn him on, not off.

Van Gogh

If somebody talks, they cannot officially DF you, because you are not baptized. In that case they could somehow apply some sort of "marking" to you, and could consequently shun you. The WTS-Talmud-rule-book can turn out to be quite complicated in these kinds of situations here, and can be interpreted in many ways to suit any favored party.
The "Clintonian" acts that you suggest took place here are synonymous to frequent straight sex according to the WTS. Even touching breasts can, under some aggravating circumstances, lead to DF (See notes by sir82 somewhere on this forum in the past six weeks or so).
A lot also depends on who comes forward first. If, for instance, the baptized one should come forward first, and this person is "in good standing", and is, for example, a pioneer, or his/her dad is an elder, or he/she has connections, then somebody like that could get away with murder. The other, unbaptized, and therefore more "worldly", and so less "spiritual" outsider, can in such a scenario be portrayed as someone who led the other party on and was a bad influence. On the other hand, if the unbaptized "Monica Lewinsky" party goes to confession first, she could, if playing her cards exactly right, and depending on the composition of the judicial committee, inflict a lot of damage to the other one.
One of the main problems in these kinds of cases is that, unless pictures or videos were made, there is no concrete evidence as to the accuracy of the testimonies and accusations involved. This can, and often does, result in denial of facts or lying on the part of the accused, especially if such accused party feels him/her-self under attack and betrayed out of the blue. Whoever can conjure up the most sympathy could be believed, and could win.
A complicating factor is often that a judicial committee is not focused on restoring injustice, spiritual aid to, or protection of a weak party, or finding out the facts, but is geared towards damage control for the organization and not bringing things out in the open. The judicial process is held "in camera," and is a secret session behind closed doors. In the process, the judicial body of elders can never be impartial because they are often involved socially with the parties involved, or have acted as their confidential pastors towards them in the past, therefore also knowing their past "criminal record," and as such are liable to be biased beyond the case under consideration. Furthermore, the Judicial Committee acts in the incompatible roles of prosecutor, judge, jury, executioner and parole officer - all in one. This has had, and is still having, grave consequences for whoever is the vulnerable party, for it has led to pedophilia and sexual abuse of minors to go unchecked for years. This way, it is easy - and probably only a natural consequence - for elders to cover for each other.

Unfortunately, under these circumstances, I would advise you to under any circumstance refrain from any kind of statement whatever. Acting and playing dumb, and yes, unfortunately stooping to the level of bending the facts and truth towards protecting your own interests, are the only viable defense you will ever have under this system (that is to say, as long as you do not go to confession to suit your own peace of conscience or stoop down to the level of trying to get back at the other party).
If, in any case you decide you want get baptized, it could sometimes be more or less expected of you to beforehand confess anything worthwhile. If you don't, you might under certain circumstances be liable to future problems over this. If, however, you do not make this kind of confession, your JW career will already have started with a compromise/lie all of your own. Besides, this guy could start feeling guilty about what transpired at ANY time in the future, for example when he gets another girlfriend with loose lips that wants to get back at him, or when he wants to clean his slate before getting married. This could potentially be a ticking time bomb for you.

As to your own situation, what strikes me is that you have had a relationship with a baptized guy who A) wants a virgin, while B) deflowering you according to his own law, while C)this guy must realize that he is liable to being DF'd for what he committed, but seems to have no problem with this. He has had his way with you, and gets rid of you without any problem. To me, this sound to double standards all the way around. It is just a perfect illustration of how he has been - and you might in future be - gradually maneuvered into a tricky, muddy, self-serving double-standard matrix, whatever good intentions one might set out with.
Therefore, IMHO, you would be wise to investigate the moral and religious origins of where this kind of double-standard mindset that every JW is forced into springs from, and to investigate the moral authority of an organization that maintains a harmful religious legal system.
The outcome might be the solution to your dilemma...

Take care,

Theo Vincent

serendipity

HI Lazuli,

Please get hold of the 11/22/05 Awake and read the article "Young People Ask...Must WE Have a Formal Wedding". There's a section that addresses one of your points: You don't have to marry just because you commit fornication.

Intimacy

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