For Arthur.

by hillary_step 7 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Arthur,

  In a thread on another post you asked the question quoted below. I thought that it deserved a thread of its own.

  CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

  While peace on earth and on this board is a noble sentiment, it may actually not be a healthy emotional sentiment to attain to. The world is full of disagreements, over all manner of matters, and these disagreements often lead to creative and intellectual possibilities. In short they help people grow both emotionally and intellectually. Many XJW's have never been afforded this possibility due to a past where all aspects of their lives were tailored by other peoples opinions.

  It is during such discussions that those who were for many years have been allowed no opinion of their own under the WTS regime of 'we will all get along', flex their intellectual muscles and learn to fly. Of course, often it is not a pretty sight and sometimes our feelings get hurt when we express opinions and these are vigorously challenged, but this is a discussion Board and such things should be expected.

  Few XJW's come out of the organzation with political, or social views that have actually been researched or pondered on and the naievity of many of the posters to such threads, on both sides, is clearly noticeable. One does not do that person *any* good by allowing their views to rest unchallenged. Remember the WTS instructed us not to debate with people as we went door to door, perhaps is they had not discouraged this, many of us would have learned what 'truth' was really all about.

  As for the 'ad hominem' attacks ones sees so regularly, and in which I regularly participate, it must be noted that all arguments to some degree or the other contain an element of ad hominem within them, and actually this is a very useful tool to help a poster look at themselves more carefully. As long as this is not done in anger, no harm but a bruised ego can come from it. When people claim, 'you attack me not my idea', perhaps they should look at that idea more carefully as it may be so naive and with such little substance that only an ad hominem response would grace it with any dignity at all.

  One one the most difficult aspects of WTS thinking to expunge from ourselves of is the, 'us and them' mentality that rapidly rises to the surface when our views are challenged. This comes to a head very quickly in political threads where, for example, any criticism of the present White House administration automatically means that the person is an 'opposer' of what is right, and is therefore a 'wordly' Liberal - Armaggedon fodder. This of course is complete nonesense, as is the the idea that every Muslim represents the views of Al Queada, that anybody who criticises America is opposed to justice freedom and democracy, and that deep down every Frenchman is jealous of the Kansas skies.

  To allow a person to live within this psuedo-theocratic thinking unchallenged is not doing them any favors at all.

  HS
• 

  anewme

  Hillary, if what you are saying is that a little criticism that makes another person think is a good thing, then I whole heartedly agree!
  
  It is pretty much impossible NOT to step on some toes when trying to achieve understanding between people.
  Communication is very challenging. The full range of feeling and emotion in the human heart is so great. It is very difficult to translate it all into words and sentences and paragraphs to appeal to another human heart. Misunderstandings are so common that some give up trying at all.
  Add to that like you said, the JW mindset which does not allow for free thought and which restricts the thoughts and expressions of others and you have a forum pre-set for trouble.
  
  But all in all I have found the atmosphere here very condusive to growth. I was a victim of bubble thinking. And when I first came here I was amazed, offended, insulted, inspired, attracted, educated, amused, by all the new and widely diverse opinions I was meeting for the first time. One day the bubble burst and the barrier I suffered from was gone! I felt free and unafraid to listen to others with patience and calm while retaining my own growing philosophy.
  
  This forum is a little like the real world itself-----in need of good communicators and diplomacy and courtesy and allowance for freedom of expression and thought.
• 

  kid-A

  "When people claim, 'you attack me not my idea', perhaps they should look at that idea more carefully as it may be so naive and with such little substance that only an ad hominem response would grace it with any dignity at all."

  Excellent point. Even when an idea does not originate exclusively with the poster, if one posts said idea in full agreement with it, they have incorporated the idea into their own persona, making it justifiably vulnerable to criticism as a reflection of the poster.
• 

  acsot

  “ When people claim, 'you attack me not my idea', perhaps they should look at that idea more carefully as it may be so naive and with such little substance that only an ad hominem response would grace it with any dignity at all.”

  Actually, if you’ve ever seen any kind of debate between highly educated and intelligent people, who are very aware of the issues they debate and have researched such thoroughly, you will find loads of comments such as “what nonsense”, “you don’t have a clue”, “don’t be ridiculous”, etc. etc. And at the end of the day they’re all still friends and feel rather invigorated by such vociferous display of their intellectual acumen.

  It does not mean (in those instances I've seen) that the ideas thus expressed have “little substance”.

  Of course, that last statement does not necessarily hold true on this discussion board J.
• 

  hillary_step

  Anewme,

  Communication is very challenging. The full range of feeling and emotion in the human heart is so great. It is very difficult to translate it all into words and sentences and paragraphs to appeal to another human heart. Misunderstandings are so common that some give up trying at all.

  Yes, and a sense of detachment helps. It is good to keep in mind that even the boards most bitter enemies, were they to meet in real life on a social level would likely become rapid friends. This in itself shows that the usefulness of discussion boards is limited to one dimension, and often a very stilted dimension at that. They should not be given more credibility than they deserve - an excellent resource for learning, but with clearly defined social limits.

  There are few people here that matter in my personal life. Why? Is it because of heartlessness? No, it is because I learned long ago not to judge a character by the 10% of the person that you see on these boards. It may hint at their nature, but the limits in understanding are obvious.

  HS
• 

  Arthur

  Hello Hillary_Step,

  I appreciate your post. I'm not quite sure of what to make of it though. I had trouble understanding the point you were trying to make. If you found my post to be offensive in any way, I sincerely apologize.

  Let me explain the context of my post. That particular thread was pretty heated. My post was just an attempt to show a little bit of humor in asking posters to be kind with one another. I never anticipated that it would be analyzed as an attempt to make some sort of political statement, or some sort of critique of others views.

  I guess the point that I am making is this: It was just a little joke. Something that I've noticed quite a number of others doing on this site. (including the particular thread you wrote about) But, I must admit that sometimes jokes can be misunderstood and sometimes people can erroneously read more into it than it really says.

  I would never want to disrespect other people's sensibilities or views. I certainly respect the fact that people on this site have many different views.

  Again, I never attempted to show disrespect, I just was trying to show a little sense of humor. For any of you who found it to be disrespectful, I am sorry, and I sincerely apologize.
• 

  hillary_step

  Arthur,

  Thank you for this post and your PM note. Please understand that no offense was taken by your comment, or intended to be given by my thread. I merely used your comment, which is not an uncommon one on this board when things get ragged, as a vehicle for making a point regarding the usefullness of healthy debate.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  daniel-p

  CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

  
  

  
  I think the more fundamental question to ask here is: Are humans really any better, or morally superior, to animals? If we are, why do we continue to commit atrocities and even forget about them? Why do I not care enough about the 800k+ deaths in Rwanda to devote my life to promoting peace? Tens of thousands of years of human history has testified to the fact that no, we cannot all get along. Geographic distance has afforded the ignorance and intolerance of between races, ethnicities, and religions. As the earth becomes more densley populated in arable lands the conflict will subside. However, the regions may still be antagonistic between each other. Anyway, I'm off on a tangent here. Of course none of this absolves me or anyone else from not caring about human deaths and continuing to find commonalities to set aisde differences.

  endnote: (And then you get into the discussion of if we all can't just get along, then everyone must be forced to get along. And the only way to do that effectively is under a totalitarian state - is this really what we want? Will we ultimately sacrifice our freedom for security? Ironically, many of those who have historically valued freedom are now turning a blind eye towards Bush's "write-ins" of security policy which constantly undermine our privacy.)