A few questions for JWs who follow apologists like thirdwitness

by Lady Lee 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    JWFreak brought up an interesting point in his thread Can't live with.... Can't live without.....

    A BIG thank you to THIRDWITNESS. Your ramblings trying to defend the indefensible...was what really opened my eyes. The Society is just so so wrong So again a BIG BIG Thank you
    • As you follow someone as they try to support WT beliefs what are you thinking?
    • Do you think you know the answers?
    • Do you realize that after years as a JW you don't know the answers either?
    • How does it affect you emotionally to realize some beliefs can't be defended?
    • As you followed along were you searching through WT literature and Bible for the answers?
    • Was there one thing/issue that sealed the deal for you in realizing the WTS is wrong?

    Umderstanding the thinking process as you follow along might help others and help us as well as we try to expose the teachings/beliefs as false

  • blondie
    blondie

    You mean thirdwitnessnot thirdson which is in the subject line. thirdson is a very nice poster whose posts are few nowadays.

    Blondie

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Thanks Blondie. I have made the correction

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    Lady Lee,

    I can share my thoughts on your questions:

  • As you follow someone as they try to support WT beliefs what are you thinking?
  • Of course, with any debate, each party has the ability to "score points". What happens is when apologists come here, they underestimate their opponent, a mistake anytime. So, the questions that are directed to them are questions they can't answer and I know they can't answer. Yet,instead of conceeding that there is indeed no scriptural response, they twist something to try to make it fit. The response sometimes sounds good on the surface, but when debating here, the "other side" can call them on the inconsistancies. It's the trying to make an answer fit that bothers me the most because it is dishonest. The bottom line for a JW is supposed to be supporting the truth regardless of where that truth leads you. That's what I was taught to do but in reality, its support the WTS. Those debates made that clear to me.

  • Do you think you know the answers?
  • I know the WT responses. What I didn't do before I came here was check on some of the sources or look up other Bible commentaries to see discussions on some of those issues. I thought the WT was right because that's all I knew.

    Do you realize that after years as a JW you don't know the answers either?

    I think the real answers to some of the things (like the UN matter) are known only by a select few. But, the underlying problem with them being an associate NGO and the resulting spin work are more important and to me are a sign of wickedness, not the humility that leadership wants us to believe they have. On doctrinal stuff, I beginning to see that noone has all the answers.

  • How does it affect you emotionally to realize some beliefs can't be defended?
  • A range of emotions, sadness, anger, feeling "played", But, we are taught to direct those emotions to the people who bring up the valid points. That's way the WTS doesn't want debating "apostates" or reading material that doesn't present them in a positive light. Because they know they can't defend some of these things and again, rather than humbly admitting their error, they demonize everyone who disagrees with them. That's something I already knew and I was felt that if it's really the truth, then nothing can overturn it. I still believe that which is why I don't think it's the truth. Truth is truth, there can't be ANY lies.

    As you followed along were you searching through WT literature and Bible for the answers?

    Bible - yes, WT literature - no. I knew what the WT reasoning was on most of the things discussed, although some of the old things were a suprise to me.

  • Was there one thing/issue that sealed the deal for you in realizing the WTS is wrong?
  • The UN issue. Not so much the initial association (although acting as a volunteer passing out information on the UN really makes me angry). It's the cover-up. The lack of humility, the quashing of dissent. I've always had doubts about the FDS issue but after that 607/587 debate and going through the Daniel book at the BS, it became clear to me that I was being fooled. The blood policy has also bothered me for a long time but I was hoping for reform. I know see there will be no reform and that they will do anything to keep from admitting wrong.

    Hope that helps a little. I really want others to recognize the dishonesty that is taking place.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    WOW thanks a lot Doubting Bro.

    So dishonesty and lack of humility on the part of the FDS.

    One of the things I learned in recovery was that one aspect of maturinty meant being able to acknowledge mistakes. I spent so much of my life trying to be perfect and doing what others expected. When I could not maintain the facade any longer I seriously contemplated suicide. Recovery taught me no one is perfect. We all make mistakes and being able to admit them to myself and to others was a sign of grown not weakness.

    But the WTS doesn't do that. They try to maintain the aura of imperfect perfection (an oxymoron if ever there was one). If it serves their purpose to be in perfect harmony with God then they do and if it fits their purpose to say they are just men then they wiggle out of their "mistakes".

    They expect far more from the average JW than they offer to the JW.

    Seeing the lies, cover-ups and manipulations was hard and the WTS lost its pronouncement of "truth" pretty quick.

    Thanks again for your responses

  • Arthur
    Arthur

    I know the WT responses. What I didn't do before I came here was check on some of the sources or look up other Bible commentaries to see discussions on some of those issues. I thought the WT was right because that's all I knew.

    DoubtingBro,

    I, as well as others completely understand and relate to your statements. So many of us accepted the WTS talking points, because we were operating from the pre-established paradigm of the WTS being God's channel of communication. In our own minds, we never had any reason to investigate any matters of doctrine or policy, because we "already knew we had the truth". How did we know we had the truth? Because the WTS is "God's channel of communication". How did we know this? Because they told us this over, and over, and over again. After a while, we merely reacted like Pavlov's dogs. Our minds were eventually stuck on the auto pilot of circular reasoning that was built upon sophistry-laden indoctrination.

    Don't beat yourself up. All of us had to have the false pride "beaten" out of us before we were willing to question our most cherished beliefs.

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    I suspect some JW apologists are in so deep that getting out is not worth it to them. My brother is a JW elder, ex-Bethelite, married to a JW, and in business with a JW. He's too deeply invested in the JWs on every level. For him to leave would mean he'd have to jettison his wife, his business, his friends, his parents, and his religion.

    I think many in his position would rather smother their doubts than tackle them head-on. It's easier for them to try to find whatever scraps of good may be found in the org and defend them as an excuse to stay. I'm torn between being critical of their lack of courage and feeling sorry for them. It can't be easy.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    I suspect some JW apologists are in so deep that getting out is not worth it to them. My brother is a JW elder, ex-Bethelite, married to a JW, and in business with a JW. He's too deeply invested in the JWs on every level. For him to leave would mean he'd have to jettison his wife, his business, his friends, his parents, and his religion. parakeet

    Some of us here did just that, we left the Watchtower knowing full well that the organization has orchestrated leaving to be almost impossible.

    Just more evidence that the JW's do not have truth, have never had truth and never will have truth as long as they remain in the cult.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Good questions Lady Lee. Welcome Doubting Bro and good answers. What convinced me after years of doubting was to see that the WTS misquotes sources to make a point. At the time this particularly was the information in the Watchtower about earthquakes, the Trinity and blood.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Yep, good to read you, Doubting Bro !

  • Share this

    Google+
    Pinterest
    Reddit