Leolaia - A little question about Greek for you...or anyone else :)

by rassillon 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  rassillon

  Leolaia,

  Being the resident scholar around here can you answer me a question. First off I did read your extended piece on the cross. Well done, and I apologize if you covered this in that and I just didn't catch it.

  Here goes.....

  Below is a quote from the "Reasoning Book" under the heading of cross.

  *** rs p. 89 par. 1 Cross ***

  The Greek word rendered "cross" in many modern Bible versions ("torture stake" in NW) is stau·ros´. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.

  It states that "In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake"

  Now is that dishonest?

  Isn't it true that "classical Greek" is generally Attic Greek which was written about the 6th to 4th century BC and was more strict in meaning, but Koine Greek which was the language the NT was written in was less specific in word meanings?

  Thanks in advance!

  -r
• 

  M.J.

  I'm no expert but found some articles.

  Here's a good article on ancient Greek, which includes the dialects spoken during the classical period: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek

  Here's one on Koine Greek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek

  Koine Greek ( ????? ???????? ) refers to the forms of the Greek language used in post-classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300).

  Going from memory of Leolaia's post on the cross, a key point was that the language develops over time and it is ludicrous to point to an early usage of a word to exclude the possibility of any alternate usage later on. It would be as if someone in the future saw the word "car" used in literature from the 21st century, looked up the meaning of the word in the middle ages and thus concluded that in the 21st century people rode in chariots.
• 

  Atlantis

  Credit Goes To Leolaia! http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92381/1.ashx

  The Society insists that the word stauros did not refer to crosses in the first century AD and merely referred to single-beamed stakes. Here are some typical statements to this effect in the literature:

  "Stauros in both classical and koine Greek carries no thought of a "cross" made from two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile, or pole" (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 1, 1988, p. 1191).

  "The inspired writers of the Christian Greek scriptures wrote in the common (koine) Greek and used the word stauros to mean the same as in the classical Greek, namely, a stake or a pole, a single one without a crossbeam of any kind or at any angle. There is no proof to the contrary" (New World Translation, 1950 edition, p. 769).

  "In classical Greek, this word [stauros] meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece" (Reasoning From the Scriptures, 1987, p. 89).

  Now, it is true that the etymological meaning is something like "an object which stands firm" (< Proto-Indo-European *sta-, whence our English words via Germanic, "stand", "stern", "stem"), and stauros was originally denoted a type of pointed stake used to build fences. Homer's Oddysey provides the earliest attestation of this word: "He had driven stakes (staurous) the whole length this way and that, huge stakes, set close together, which he had made by splitting an oak to the black core" (14.11). Thucydides (Historia, 4.90.2) similarly describes the building of a fence by "fixing stakes (staurous)" along a ditch, and stauros was also used with the sense of "palisade" or "piles" serving as a foundation (e.g. Herodotus, Historiarum 5.16; Thucydides, Historia 7.25.6-8). It was also used to refer to the pointed stake used in impalement (compare Seneca's description above of "the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat"), though a more common term for this was skolops: e.g. "...hurl their bodies from rugged rocks or impale them with a stake (skolopsi)" (Euripides, Iphigenia Taurica,1430).

  So it is certainly true that stauros meant only "stake" originally. But it would be a mistake to think that the original or most basic sense of the word is the only one that matters. A little reflection on the history of the word "car" will show why this is the case. Etymologically, "car" comes from the Latin carrus and meant "chariot". Thus in Middle English (which was when the word was borrowed into the language), we find it used to mean chariots; the 1382 Wyclif translation of Isaiah 66:16 referred to "his foure horsid carres" and the original 1611 King James Version translated 1 Esdras 5:55 as: "They gause carres that they should bring Cedar trees from Libanus". But by this time, the word was being used in a modern sense to refer to the horse-drawn "carriage"; in 1576, an Act of Queen Elizabeth referred to "Cars or Drags furnished for Repairing Highways", and a 1716 issue of the London Gazaette referred to "Carts, Drays, Carrs, and Waggons". Then it was used to refer to the part of a hot-air balloon in which aeronauts sit; in 1794, G. Adams wrote concerning "Air Balloons": "To this a sort of carr, or rather boat, was suspended from ropes", and another source from 1825 refers to an aeronaut "seated in the car of his vehicle". Finally, the term began to be used to refer to "motor cars" when they were invented, and has become almost exclusively restricted to this meaning; in 1896 L. Serraillier refered to "Farman's Auto-Cars" and in 1900, W. W. Beaumont noted: "Hill-climbing trials along would not of course be sufficient as a test of the wearing power or durability of a car".

  Credit Goes To Leolaia!
• 

  moggy lover

  It is true that ancient Greek went through different historical periods. What is referred to as the "Pre-Homeric period" lasted upto the 10th cent BC. The classical period came into effect, when georaphy and politics [ex the city-states which were independant entities] caused Greek to fracture into several dialects, four of which became predominant: Aeolic, Doric, Ionic, and by far the most influencial, Attic. Attic was in fact a direct offspring of Ionic. It owed its prominence to the fact that it was the dialect of ancient Athens. Since Athens was the political and literary centre of Greece during its "golden age"of literature, its form of language slowly gained assendancy. Usually, Attic and Classical Greek are regarded as synonymous terms.

  With Greece going international with the conquests of Alexander, Greek again went through a revolutionary change, this time transmuting into the language we now know as "Koine" Greek. This was about 330 BC - 330AD

  Like all languages, ancient Greek was a living organism and took on linguistic characteristics and modifications that were potent for its time. This went as far as vocabulary.When Greece came into contact with other cultural influences like that of Persia, it absorbed the nuances of that culture which was reflected in a broading of the dictionary meanings of words.

  This was the case in point for a word like "stauros" It is true that in Attic Greek times, ie the time of Homer [ca 600BC], the word simply meant a "Stake" [nothing connoting "torture" was attached to the word] But that is not the point. The NT was written in Koine times, when Greek came in contact with the cultural influences of Rome. Rome had a word for their instrument of execution for criminals, and that was the "crux", a word for which there was no equivalent in Greek, so the word "stauros" was used to describe this instrument. Thus by NT times stauros was = to the Latin crux. Yes the "[Human] Reasoning" book is dishonest in that it insists on using an anachronistic meaning of "stauros" for its own purposes.

  It's like using the word "suffer" as used in KJV English, as in "Suffer the little children" to imply that Jesus was referring to the inflicting of pain on little children.In KJV English times the word "suffer" simply meant to "permit"

  Cheers
• 

  Atlantis

  http://www.catholicapologetics.net/jw_cross41.htm

  THE MEANING OF THE GREEK WORD "STAUROS" AS "CROSS"

  THE MEANING OF THE GREEK WORD "STAUROS" AS "CROSS"

  [ The citations bellow are taken from some of the most scholarly and respected Greek Lexicons, Greek Dictionaries, Greek Manuals, Greek Linguistic keys, New Testament word studies, Bible Dictionaries, Bible Encyclopedias. ]

  "Stauros,. . . The Cross, N.T. : its form was represented by the Greek letter T, Luc." (An Intermediate Greek - English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, Oxford, impression of 1991, p. 743)

  "Stauros, ov, o the cross. . . a stake sunk into the earth in a upright position; a cross-piece was oft. (Artem. 2, 53) attached to its upper part, so that is was shaped like a T or thus t." (A Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, William Arndt, 1979, p. 764)

  "Stauros, Cross" ( Greek-English Dictionary of The New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, Jr., 1971 p. 167)

  "Stauros;. . . A cross , Mat. 27. 32, 40, 42; Phi. 2. 8; by impl. the punishment of the cross, crucifixion" (Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament, By Rev. Thomas Sheldon Green M.A., 1973, p. 172)

  “Strauros in the NT, however, apparently was a pole sunk into the ground with with a cross-bar fastened to it giving it a ‘T’ shape. Often the word ‘cross’
  referred only to the cross-bar” (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Edited by Merrill C Tenney, 1976,Vol. 1, p 1037-1038)

  "The noun Stauros means 'cross' throughout the nearly thirty occurrences of the term." (Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, by Stephen D. Renn, 2005, p.223)

  "Stauros;... a pole or Cross" (The New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of the Greek Testament, By James Strong S.T.D. LL.D., 2001, p.61)

  "Stauros The Cross" (Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, by F. Wilbur Gingrich, 1965, p.202 )

  "Stauros; The Cross" (The Linguistic Key To The Greek New Testament by Fritz Reienecker, 1981,Vol. 1 P. 83 )

  "Stauros;. . . A cross , Mat. 27. 32, 40, 42; Phi. 2. 8; by impl. the punishment of the cross, crucifixion" (The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, By Wesley J. Perschbacher,1999, p. 377)

  "Stauros; Cross" (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, by J. H. Moulton and G. Milligan, 1930, p. 586)

  "Stauros; a cross (crux), strictly the transverse beam (patibulum), which was placed at the top of the vertical part, thus forming a capital T. it was this transverse beam that was carried by the criminal " (A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 240)

  "Stauros;... a pole or Cross" (Dictionary of the Greek Testament, By James Strong S.T.D. LL.D., p.66)

  "Stauros (5-27) Cross" (A Reader’s Greek- English Lexicon of the New Testament, by Sakae Kubo, 1975, p. 35)

  "4716. Stauros; from histemi (2476) or stag, to stand. A cross, a stake for execution, an instrument of torture." (Lexical Aides To the New Testament, compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th. D., 1992 P. 956)

  "The two Greek words used for the cross are xylon ('wood') and Stauros ('stake,' or 'cross'). . . As practiced by the Romans, crucifixion involved either tying or nailing the convicted person to a crossbeam which was attached to the Stauros ('pole'). The cross might be in the form of a T or, as it is more traditionally represented, as a t ." (New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words, by Lawrence O. Richards Th.M. Ph.D. , 1991, p. 204)

  "Stauros; . . . In late writers (Diod., Plut., al.) of the Roman interment of crucifixion, the cross: of the cross on which Christ suffered, Mt 27:32, 40, 42 Mk 15:21, 30, 32 Lk 23:25, Jo 19:17,19, 25, 31, Col 2:14, He 12:2 "(A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 415)

  "Stauros, o, the cross" (Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 177)

  "Stauros; A Cross" (Greek- English Lexicon of he New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, PH.D., 1976, p.93)

  "stauros, stake, cross" (Word Pictures in the New Testament, by A. T. Robertson, 1930, Vol. IV, p. 291)

  "Cross Greek expression: stauros" (Holman Treasury of Key Bible Words, by Eugene E. Carpenter, 2000, p.260)

  "Stauros; The Cross" (The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The Greek New Testament, by Cleon L. Rogers III, 1998, p. 63)

  "a cross (Gk. Stauros,t ; also in the form of an X - or T- shaped structure)" (Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Edited by David Noel Freedman, 2000, P.298)

  "Stauros; CROSS (Gr. Stauros; Lat. crux)" (The Family Bible Encyclopedia, 1972, Vol. 4 p. 676 )

  "Stauros;. . . A cross , Mat. 27. 32, 40, 42; Phi. 2. 8; by impl. the punishment of the cross, crucifixion" ( The Analytical Greek Lexicon, By By Harold K. Moulton ,1978, P.378)

  "Stauros a cross (The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 799)

  "Stauros; ...2.A Cross" ( The New Testament Greek Lexicon, online )

  "Stauros; ... 2.A Cross" (New Thayer's Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, By Joseph Henry Thayer D.D, 1979, p.586)

  "Stauros; 2 A cross" (The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, online)

  "Stauros;. . . A cross , Mat. 27. 32, 40, 42; Phi. 2. 8; by impl. the punishment of the cross, crucifixion" ( The Analytical Greek Lexicon, By George Wigram,1970, P.374)

  "Cross (Gr. Stauros). . .Our English word is derived from the Latin Crux. The cross..." (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, General Editor Merril C. Tenney, 1967, P.189)

  "Stauros; (I) A Roman cross" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, Edited by Spiros Zodhiates Th. D., 1992, P.1309)

  Cheers! Atlantis!
• 

  Leolaia

  Isn't it true that "classical Greek" is generally Attic Greek which was written about the 6th to 4th century BC and was more strict in meaning, but Koine Greek which was the language the NT was written in was less specific in word meanings?

  It's not that koine Greek is supposedly less semantically "precise" (which is not really true, the main difference is phonological and morphological leveling between Ionic and Attic dialects), but that the classical Greek before the Hellenistic age is simply irrelevant because the Roman cross had not been invented yet. To use my "car" example, it would be like asking if "car" meant "automobile" in the days of Shakespeare. Of course, stauros originally referred to stakes, just as "cars" originally referred to chariots. The main question is, after the Roman cross came into existence, what word did the Greeks use to refer to it?

  Another mistake the Society makes is that word meaning was oriented to the shape of the execution instrument. This is natural for an English speaker because "cross" in English is used to describe a particular kind of shape (e.g. "cross-shaped"). But crux and stauros were not used this way in relevant period; these were terms for a particular type of execution instrument which itself varied in shape. A car is a car regardless of whether it is tiny smart car, an SUV, a stretch limo, or a 1912 Model T. A guillotine is a guillotine regardless of whether one nails another plank of wood to it. A crux was a crux regardless of whether one attached a patibulum (crossbeam), a sedile (a seat), a titilus (board stating the crime), or a foot-board. It is the function of the device that mattered. Stauros was used to refer to the instrument on which the Romans used to execute people alive, regardless of how the executioner decided to fashion it....and we know that the crossbeam was frequently used as early as the late third century BC. Since there was no word that was coined to specifically refer to crosses that included crossbeams, it is clear that stauros would have referred to them since it was the default term for this kind of execution. And the few overt descriptions of the cross or crucified people in Greek sources in the first and second century BC do, in fact, describe the stauros as including a crossbeam or involving the carrying of the crossbeam before crucifixion.
• 

  Atlantis

  http://www.catholicapologetics.net/jw_cross.htm

  To the Right is a scan from the 1993 Watchtower booklet "How Can Blood Save Your Life" (p. 7), it contains a picture of early Christians dying on crosses in the arena. This amounts to an inadvertent admission that Jesus did die on a cross.
  		Above is a close up of the picture.

  ---

  THE TERM "CROSS" FOUND IN THE PRE-1950 WATCHTOWER PRINTINGS OF THE BIBLE:

  In the years before 1969 the Interlinear of choice for the Jehovah's Witnesses was the Emphatic Diaglott. Benjamin Wilson authored and self-published the "Emphatic Diaglott" in the 1860s, the interlinear Bible translation which was so essential to Watchtower theology that Wilson's printing plates were obtained after his death. for many year the Witnesses printed there own editions of this Bible, this is one of them.
  	The opening page of a 1942 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the Emphatic Diaglott.	In this scan are some example of the use of the term "Cross". Look at Mark 15: 24,25, 30, 32, and in the footnote for verse 24.	This scan is of the definition of the word "Cross" found in the "dictionary" in the back of the Emphatic Diaglott. We note that it describes a Cross as a "T", " t ", or a "X"
  J. F. Rutherford (the second president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract society) said this about the Emphatic Diaglott: "The Emphatic Diaglott is one of the purest translations of the New Testament. It is translated from the original Greek. The Vatican Manuscript was chiefly used in its preparation, reference being had also to the Sinaitic and other manuscripts. It expresses the thought in modern language and greatly aids the Greek and English student in studying the New Testament. (Creation; 1927; p. 119)

  THE KJV: In the years before 1950 the Bible that was accepted, printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the King James Version (KJV).The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this popular Protestant Bible
  	The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the King James Version.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:32, 35, 40
  J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the King James Version: "Doubtless there has never been a more masterful and perfect English publication than the Authorized Version of the Bible." (Creation; 1927; p. 117)
  THE ASV In the years between 1944 and the late nineteen seventies one of the Bible that was accepted, Printed, used, promoted, and distributed by the Jehovah Witnesses (JW) was the American Standard Version (ASV).The printing arm of the Jehovah Witnesses (the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) published many editions of this Protestant Bible. .	.
  	The opening page of a Pre-1950 Jehovah's Witnesses printing of the American Standard Version.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27:40
  .J. F. Rutherford had this to say about the American Standard Version: "The commission of reviser who prepared the Revised Version from 1870 forward had access to these manuscripts, however. The ancient manuscripts were studied, together with the various versions; and the greatest possible care and means were employed to bring forth a Bible expressing, as nearly as possible, the thought expressed by the original manuscripts" (Creation; 1927; p. 118)

  THE BLI : The "The Bible in Living English" (BLI) translated by Steven T. Byington (not to be confused with Taylor's "Living Bible"). Byington began translating the opening chapters of Matthewin 1898. He continued slowly with the project until 1940 when he was able to devote most of his time to the work and bring it to completion. After his death in 1957 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society acquired the publication rights, but the translation was withheld from publication until 1972.
  	The opening page of a 1972 edition of The Bible in Living English.	We can see the use of the word "Cross" in Matt.27: 32, 40

  Cheers! Atlantis-
• 

  rassillon

  Thank you everybody!

  There are so many subjects to cover and the misdirection and mistruths can be difficult to filter out.

  Leolaia, moggy, Atlantis, did I forget someone....

  Anyway big big thanks...

  Leolaia, I am going to have to re-read your post....again!

  -r