Rose Ball Information Needed - Did Rutherford Lie?

by VM44 8 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  VM44

  I seeking information about Rose Ball.

  Specifically,

  1) When she was born.

  2) When she was "adopted" by the Russells and moved into their home.

  3) When she left Bethel.

  4) Was she an orphan?

  I would greatly appreciate it if anyone can answer these questions.

  Judge Rutherford wrote about her in his 1915 book, A GREAT BATTLE IN THE ECCLESIASTICAL HEAVENS.

  "But the most conclusive facts disclosed by the record showing her statement to be untrue are these: Miss Ball came to them in 1889, a child of ten, and was taken into the home of Mr. and Mrs. Russell. She was treated as a member of the family. She was an orphan. She kissed both Mr. and Mrs. Russell good night each evening when she retired. They treated her as their own child."

  I claim that Rutherford lied and deliberately wrote wrong information concerning Miss Ball in an attempt to clear Charles Russell's name of some scandalous stories that were being (and still are) told about him.

  --VM44
• 

  Zico

  See here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/8/75868/1.ashx That thread answers all your questions
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  VM44

  Thanks Zico. I'm going to that thread now.

  --VM44
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  Leolaia

  1) According to her death certificate, she died at age 81 in 1950. That points to 1869 as her year of birth. According to the 1880 census, Rose was 11 years old at the time, which again points to 1869.

  2) Unfortunately the 1890 census was destroyed by fire, so we can't confirm if she had moved in with the Russells the year before. HOWEVER, regardless of where she was, she would have been 21 years old at the time. NOT a little girl.

  3) I think she left Bethel before 1900 (she is not in the 1900 census) to be a pilgrim, and was already living in Australia with her husband by 1909, when the New Covenant schism happened.

  4) She was definitely NOT an orphan. Her parents were alive in 1910 for they appear in the 1910 census, and Barbara Anderson has their death certificates from 1911.
• 

  VM44

  Thank you Leolaia.

  Now the question is....Did Rutherford deliberately lie about Rose Ball when he wrote his "Great Battle" book?

  I think his intent was to produce a document that would provide a foundation for the falsehoods. There being no other sources easily obtained to contradict whatever he wrote.

  His being at Bethel when he wrote the book gave him the opportunity to obtain the correct facts concerning Rose Ball's age, so either he was intentionally lying or extremely sloppy in his research.

  --VM44
• 

  VM44

  Simply put...We now have a clear instance in print where Rutherford lied.
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  Leolaia

  Looks like it.

  Now consider this:

  *** yb75 pp. 69-70 United States of America (Part One) ***

  The girl in question came to the Russells in 1888 as an orphan aboutten years old. They treated her as their own child and she kissed both Mr. and Mrs. Russell good night each evening when retiring. (Court Record, pages 90 and 91) Mrs. Russell testified that the alleged incident occurred in 1894, when this girl could not have been more than fifteen years old. (Court Record, page 15) After that Mrs. Russell lived with her husband for three years and was separated from him for about seven years more before filing suit for separation. In her bill for separation no reference was made to this matter. Though Miss Ball was then living and Mrs. Russell knew where, she made no attempt to procure her as a witness and presented no statement from her. C. T. Russell himself could not have had Miss Ball present to testify because he had no notice or intimation that his wife would bring such a matter into the case. Furthermore, three years after the alleged incident, when Mrs. Russell had called together a committee before whom she and her husband discussed certain differences, the "jellyfish" story was never even intimated. In the suit for separate maintenance, Mrs. Russell’s attorney had said: "We make no charge of adultery." And that Mrs. Russell actually never believed her husband was guilty of immoral conduct was shown by the record (page 10). Her own counsel asked Mrs. Russell: "You don’t mean that your husband was guilty of adultery?" She answered: "No."

  The Society here quotes from the court record three times in this paragraph, and one of those implies that Mrs. Russell claimed that the girl was no more than 15 years old in 1894. I am quite suspicious of this, since I also have read it claimed that on p. 67 Mrs. Russell says that Rose "was about 19 or 20 when she came to us". I don't have a copy of the transcript but I sure would like to see what is on p. 15 and p. 67. I suspect p. 15 only says that the incident occurred in 1894 without specifying Rose's age, and if p. 67 says what it is quoted to say, then the Society would be caught perpetuating another falsehood on this matter....
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  VM44

  Leolaia,

  Based upon the quoted material in your last post, I now believe that Rutherford simply referred to the court transcript when he wrote the "Great Battle" book, and made no further attempt to verify the facts concerning Rose Ball.

  He truly was a lawyer!

  It is interesting to note that Charles Russell wrote in the Watchtower that he didn't want anything to do with this particular work of Rutherford's, even though it was written to defend him.

  The Russell v. Russell court transcipt would indeed be very informative to examine.

  --VM44
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  Atlantis

  Russell vs. Russell 1906 p.15 Q. When he would go to the Watch Tower in the morning? A. I don't remember; he generally went down alone. Q. Who would return with him? A. She came with him in the evenings, and they came about eleven o'clock, and the younger men that were in the office she was the only girl, and the young men would go home, and he wouldn't allow her to go home with them, and she must wait and always go with him. Objected to. I want the mere fact. Did this girl Rose go home with your husband? A. Yes Sir. Q. And the young men came home ahead of them? A. Yes Sir. Q. State to the Court and Jury what talk, if any, you had with this girl Rose, in regard to her relations with your husband, which you communicated to your husband. Objected to. By the Court:-- The objection is sustained unless you show what you propose to prove. http://www.datafilehost.com/image.php?file=30edbb33 Page 19: "As she got inside the hall, it was late in the evening, about eleven o'clock, he put his arms around her and kissed her. This was in the vestibule before they entered the hall, and he called her his little wife, but she said, "I am not your wife", and he said, "I will call you daughter, and a daughter has nearly all the privileges of a wife". And what other terms were used? A. Then he said, "I am like a jelly fish. I float around here and there. I touch this one and that one, and if she responds, I take her to me, and if not, I float on to others", and she wrote that out so that I could remember it for sure when I would speak to him about it. And he confessed that he said those things. Counsel for respondent moves the Court to strike out the testimony of the witness in relation to the alleged misconduct between Mr. Russell and this girl, Rose Ball, which she says she discovered in 1894, the libel specifically charging that the offences of which she complainsbegan in 1897. By the Court:-- You have not mentioned that in the libel. I will grant the motion http://www.datafilehost.com/image.php?file=ebe21c47 Page 67: Q. She married one of the men who was in the Association over there? A. Yes sir, in the Bible House. Q. What name? A. Mr. Hennings. Q. And they went there to engage in the work of this organization? A. That was, I suppose, the reason; I had nothing to do with that. Q. You understood so? A. I had no understanding except hearsay. I know they went there, and I know that it was mentioned in the paper afterwards. Q. What age was that girl at the time of her marriage? A. She was about nineteen or twenty when she came to us, and this was twelve years afterwards. It would make her about thirty-two--past thirty; I suppose about thirty-two. Leaving aside anything of that kind, let us get down to the time of the difficulties. Controversies arose about the general affairs, about the management of the paper. When did the first difficulty or controversy or dispute, whichever word you see fit to use, over the material that should go into that publication, come up between you http://www.datafilehost.com/image.php?file=1fc87ff4 Cheers! Atlantis-