I just haven't seen any new articles or books on this subject from the WT recently. Have I missed something or are they about to try and sweep this irritating date of 607 BCE under the carpet and pretend they never said it or have received new light?
When, recently, has the Watchtower tried to explain 607 BC leading to 1914?
by Gill 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Zico
There's a big section on it in the book 'What does the Bible really teach?' Released at Conventions in 2005.
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Gill
Thanks Zico!
That's interesting that they still stick to this date. With information so freely available via the internet now, its so easy to check.
However, I understand that, from a recent conversation with my parents, that 607 is a sort of flexible date as it 'can be viewed' that the beginning of the fall began in 607 and happens to have been completed in 586/7 so it is possible to see the fall taking twenty years. I wonder if this 'flexibility' also applies to the year 1914?
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Jeffro
However, I understand that, from a recent conversation with my parents, that 607 is a sort of flexible date as it 'can be viewed' that the beginning of the fall began in 607 and happens to have been completed in 586/7 so it is possible to see the fall taking twenty years. I wonder if this 'flexibility' also applies to the year 1914?
Hmmm... that's a new one. LOL. If they imagine that to be in any way valid, what exactly is supposed to have happened in 607?
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Zico
Gill, Your parents are wrong. 607 isn't flexible at all. The Society get to the date, by saying that Jerusalem had to have remained desolate for 70 years, and that since the Jews returned to Jerusalem in 537 BCE, Jerusalem must have been destroyed by the Babylonians in 607. According to JW chronology, 607 WAS the final attack, NOT 586. JW's will often make up things to support their own beliefs with no proof whatsoever. (Cognitive Dissonance) For example, a JW told me that all Babylonian chronology was inaccurate. I asked him, then, why the Society agree with secular historians that Babylon fell in 539BCE. He said 'That date is based on Jewish and Persian records, not Babylonian ones' He's still trying to find the evidence to support this. The reason most JW's don't research 607 is because most JW's aren't aware there is even conflict with another date. The Society rarely mentions 586/7.
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Jeffro
The Society get to the date, by saying that Jerusalem had to have remained desolate for 70 years, and that since the Jews returned to Jerusalem in 537 BCE, Jerusalem must have been destroyed by the Babylonians in 607. According to JW chronology, 607 WAS the final attack, NOT 586. The reason most JW's don't research 607 is because most JW's aren't aware there is even conflict with another date. The Society rarely mentions 586/7.
The year 586 is put forward predominatly (and outspokenly) by Adventist religionists. The correct year is 587. 586 is not supported by secular history or the bible.
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Gill
Zico - They claim that in 607 Babylon first started taking its captives from Jerusalem. It was twenty years later that it was completely destroyed in 586/587.
It seems there is always a way to explain the nonsence that the WT teaches. It's the wriggling and squirming that irritates me.
Jeffro - 'The correct year is 587 BC' . I still come across many books that state 586/587. I buy anything I can on Babylon and ancient Jerusalem and their arcaelogy and the date is still usually presented as such.
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Zico
Gill, this contradicts both the Society’s, and the Bible’s teachings.
The bible teaches quite clearly that Jerusalem was destroyed in the 18th regnal year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The Society agree with this, and say this happened in 607 BCE. Secular History teaches it happened about 587 BCE. Here is a Society quote: *** Insight Volume 2 p.481 Nebuchadnezzar ***
Finally, in 607 B.C.E., on Tammuz (June-July) 9 in the 11th year of Zedekiah's reign (Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year if counting from his accession year or his 18th regnal year), a breach was made in Jerusalem's wall. Zedekiah and his men fled but were overtaken in the desert plains of Jericho. I can’t remember where the supporting biblical quotes that say Jerusalem was destroyed in the 18th year are, but compare this with Jeremiah 52:28-30 28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·rez´zar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews.
29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls.
All the souls were four thousand and six hundred. As you can see here, the Society teach that the 18th regnal year was 607BCE. The bible shows that people from Jerusalem were taken into exile from his 7th year, not beginning in his 18th. It also shows he was still taking them in his 23rd year. Nothing in the bible indicates he was still taking them into exile in his 38th year. -
blondie
What has changed is that the WTS now refers to the "What Does the Bible Teach book" when referring to 607 BCE and 1914 CE rather than the older Kingdom book that is more detailed and trips itself up regarding secular history.
*** bh (Bible Teach 2005) pp. 216-217 1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy ***
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seventimes pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.
The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.
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Footnote***bh p. 217 1914—A Significant Year in Bible ProphecyFrom October 607 B.C.E. to October 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. Since there is no zero year, from October 1 B.C.E. to October 1914 C.E. is 1,914 years. By adding 606 years and 1,914 years, we get 2,520 years. For information on Jerusalem’s fall in 607 B.C.E., see the article "Chronology" in InsightontheScriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Instead of this
*** kc (Kingdom Come 1977) pp. 186-189 Appendix to Chapter 14 ***
Appendix to Chapter 14
Historians hold that Babylon fell to Cyrus’ army in October 539 B.C.E. Nabonidus was then king, but his son Belshazzar was coruler of Babylon. Some scholars have worked out a list of the Neo-Babylonian kings and the length of their reigns, from the last year of Nabonidus back to Nebuchadnezzar’s father Nabopolassar.
According to that Neo-Babylonian chronology, Crown-prince Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians at the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.E. (Jeremiah 46:1, 2) After Nabopolassar died Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon to assume the throne. His first regnal year began the following spring (604 B.C.E.).
The Bible reports that the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th regnal year (19th when accession year is included). (Jeremiah 52:5, 12, 13, 29) Thus if one accepted the above Neo-Babylonian chronology, the desolation of Jerusalem would have been in the year 587/6 B.C.E. But on what is this secular chronology based and how does it compare with the chronology of the Bible?
Some major lines of evidence for this secular chronology are:
Ptolemy’s
Canon: Claudius Ptolemy was a Greek astronomer who lived in the second century C.E. His Canon, or list of kings, was connected with a work on astronomy that he produced. Most modern historians accept Ptolemy’s information about the Neo-Babylonian kings and the length of their reigns (though Ptolemy does omit the reign of Labashi-Marduk). Evidently Ptolemy based his historical information on sources dating from the Seleucid period, which began more than 250 years after Cyrus captured Babylon. It thus is not surprising that Ptolemy’s figures agree with those of Berossus, a Babylonian priest of the Seleucid period.Nabonidus
HarranStele (NABONH1,B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.VAT
4956: This is a cuneiform tablet that provides astronomical information datable to 568 B.C.E. It says that the observations were from Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year. This would correspond to the chronology that places his 18th regnal year in 587/6 B.C.E. However, this tablet is admittedly a copy made in the third century B.C.E. so it is possible that its historical information is simply that which was accepted in the Seleucid period.Business
tablets: Thousands of contemporary Neo-Babylonian cuneiform tablets have been found that record simple business transactions, stating the year of the Babylonian king when the transaction occurred. Tablets of this sort have been found for all the years of reign for the known Neo-Babylonian kings in the accepted chronology of the period.From a secular viewpoint, such lines of evidence might seem to establish the Neo-Babylonian chronology with Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th year (and the destruction of Jerusalem) in 587/6 B.C.E. However, no historian can deny the possibility that the present picture of Babylonian history might be misleading or in error. It is known, for example, that ancient priests and kings sometimes altered records for their own purposes. Or, even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period.
Evidently realizing such facts, Professor Edward F. Campbell, Jr., introduced a chart, which included Neo-Babylonian chronology, with the caution: "It goes without saying that these lists are provisional. The more one studies the intricacies of the chronological problems in the ancient Near East, the less he is inclined to think of any presentation as final. For this reason, the term circa [about] could be used even more liberally than it is."—TheBibleandtheAncientNearEast (1965 ed.), p. 281.
Christians who believe the Bible have time and again found that its words stand the test of much criticism and have been proved accurate and reliable. They recognize that as the inspired Word of God it can be used as a measuring rod in evaluating secular history and views. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) For instance, though the Bible spoke of Belshazzar as ruler of Babylon, for centuries scholars were confused about him because no secular documents were available as to his existence, identity or position. Finally, however, archaeologists discovered secular records that confirmed the Bible. Yes, the Bible’s internal harmony and the care exercised by its writers, even in matters of chronology, recommends it so strongly to the Christian that he places its authority above that of the ever-changing opinions of secular historians.
But how does the Bible help us to determine when Jerusalem was destroyed, and how does this compare to secular chronology?
The prophet Jeremiah predicted that the Babylonians would destroy Jerusalem and make the city and land a desolation. (Jeremiah 25:8, 9) He added: "And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:11) The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (2 Chronicles 36:17-23) We believe that the most direct reading of Jeremiah 25:11 and other texts is that the 70 years would date from when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and left the land of Judah desolate.—Jeremiah 52:12-15, 24-27; 36:29-31.
Yet those who rely primarily on secular information for the chronology of that period realize that if Jerusalem were destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. certainly it was not 70 years until Babylon was conquered and Cyrus let the Jews return to their homeland. In an attempt to harmonize matters, they claim that Jeremiah’s prophecy began to be fulfilled in 605 B.C.E. Later writers quote Berossus as saying that after the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar extended Babylonian influence into all Syria-Palestine and, when returning to Babylon (in his accession year, 605 B.C.E.), he took Jewish captives into exile. Thus they figure the 70 years as a period of servitude to Babylon beginning in 605 B.C.E. That would mean that the 70-year period would expire in 535 B.C.E.
But there are a number of major problems with this interpretation:
Though Berossus claims that Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his accession year, there are no cuneiform documents supporting this. More significantly, Jeremiah 52:28-30 carefully reports that Nebuchadnezzar took Jews captive in his seventh year, his 18th year and his 23rd year, not his accession year. Also, Jewish historian Josephus states that in the year of the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar conquered all of Syria-Palestine "excepting Judea," thus contradicting Berossus and conflicting with the claim that 70 years of Jewish servitude began in Nebuchadnezzar’s accession year.—AntiquitiesoftheJews X, vi, 1.
Furthermore, Josephus elsewhere describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and then says that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years." (AntiquitiesoftheJews X, ix, 7) He pointedly states that "our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus." (AgainstApion I, 19) This agrees with 2 Chronicles 36:21 and Daniel 9:2 that the foretold 70 years were 70 years of full desolation for the land. Second-century (C.E.) writer Theophilus of Antioch also shows that the 70 years commenced with the destruction of the temple after Zedekiah had reigned 11 years.—See also 2 Kings 24:18–25:21.
But the Bible itself provides even more telling evidence against the claim that the 70 years began in 605 B.C.E. and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. As mentioned, if we were to count from 605 B.C.E., the 70 years would reach down to 535 B.C.E. However, the inspired Bible writer Ezra reported that the 70 years ran until "the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia," who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23) Historians accept that Cyrus conquered Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. and that Cyrus’ first regnal year began in the spring of 538 B.C.E. If Cyrus’ decree came late in his first regnal year, the Jews could easily be back in their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri) as Ezra 3:1 says; this would be October 537 B.C.E.
However, there is noreasonableway of stretching Cyrus’ first year from 538 down to 535 B.C.E. Some who have tried to explain away the problem have in a strained manner claimed that in speaking of "the first year of Cyrus" Ezra and Daniel were using some peculiar Jewish viewpoint that differed from the official count of Cyrus’ reign. But that cannot be sustained, for both a non-Jewish governor and a document from the Persian archives agree that the decree occurred in Cyrus’ first year, even as the Bible writers carefully and specifically reported.—Ezra 5:6, 13; 6:1-3; Daniel 1:21; 9:1-3.
Jehovah’s "good word" is bound up with the foretold 70-year period, for God said:
"This is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to you people, and I will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.’" (Jeremiah 29:10)
Daniel relied on that word, trusting that the 70 years were not a ‘round number’ but an exact figure that could be counted on. (Daniel 9:1, 2) And that proved to be so.
Similarly, we are willing to be guided primarily by God’s Word rather than by a chronology that is based principally on secular evidence or that disagrees with the Scriptures. It seems evident that the easiest and most direct understanding of the various Biblical statements is that the 70 years began with the complete desolation of Judah after Jerusalem was destroyed. (Jeremiah 25:8-11; 2 Chronicles 36:20-23; Daniel 9:2) Hence, counting back 70 years from when the Jews returned to their homeland in 537 B.C.E., we arrive at 607 B.C.E. for the date when Nebuchadnezzar, in his 18th regnal year, destroyed Jerusalem, removed Zedekiah from the throne and brought to an end the Judean line of kings on a throne in earthly Jerusalem.—Ezekiel 21:19-27.
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Jeffro
One of the primary flaws in the 607 dogma is that Society erroneously correlates the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11-12 with the calamity spoken of in verse 6.
It is evident that such a view is flawed. The 70 years was a specific period during which Babylon was dominant in the region (verses 9-11), which definitely ended in 539BC (verse 12). But the calamity befell various nations at different times (verses 17-29) during that period of dominance.
They can't explain it, because they are wrong. So now they don't really even bother trying. They minimize the attention drawn to it, and call the members' bluff that they'll just accept what is printed.