I have mentioned it before on this site that I have a great uncle that is a Pentacostal minister. I have also mentioned that I don't debate the Trinity doctrine anymore. But I broke my own rule the other day when my uncle called me and wanted to prove to me the Deity of Christ. He first started off by saying that too many titles that are applied to Jehovah is also applied to Jesus. I still can't believe trinitarians still insist on this argument about titles. It is just circular reasoning to say the least. I blasted him with so many examples of titles applied to Jehovah and also applied to Joshua, Moses, Mary, Samson, etc; In Judges 16:18-20 the bible says that Samson's strenght "departed" from him, but a few verses down it says "Jehovah" departed from him. I asked my uncle was Samson and Jehovah the same person? He could not answer me on this one. Jesus Christ says in Rev 3:9-11 that he is going to make his enemies come and "worship" at the feet of the disciples. I asked my uncle was Jesus making the disciples Jehovah God since Jehovah is only to be worshipped according to Jesus at John 4:24-26. He immediately interjected by saying that Jesus was worshipped in the book of Matthew where it showed that they fell and "worshipped" him and in Hebrews 1:6 all of the angels are instructed to "worship" Jesus. I again asked my uncle the same question what about the disciples that Jesus is ordering the enemies to worship. You can't have it both ways if worship means the person is Jehovah in all cases then Jesus was making the disciples Jehovah God. Then my uncle made me laugh and said Jesus meant "obeisance" instead of "worship" in Rev. But yet trinitarians accuse JW's of altering the bible when they say Obesiance. Jehovah says in Isaiah 43:11 there is no "Savior" with me but in the OT Moses is called Savior, Othenial is called Savior. So are Moses and Othenial Jehovah God because Jehovah said there was no "Savior" with him? In Exodus 7:1 Jehovah says Moses will be "god" and Aaron will be his "prophet". Now my question to any Trinitarian is this, How could Moses be "god" according to Jehovah and Aaron be his "prophet". Was Moses a "false" god or True "god"? And only Jehovah has "prophets" so this verse must prove Moses is Jehovah. Nebecchednezzar(sorry for spelling) and Jesus are both called "king of kings" so according to trinitarian argument was Jesus and Neb the same person? The OT is sometimes referred to the "Law of Moses" but is it not the "Law of Jehovah" as well. So does this mean that Jehovah and Moses must share Godship? Is Moses the 4th person of the Trinity? My uncle stop talking after about an hour and did not want to talk anymore. It just amazes me that trinitarians are still using "old" arguments that have been shown to be circular reasoning. I am not saying that my arguments proved against the Deity of Jesus I am just saying that there is room for Doubt because after all it is only my interpretation. Only Jehovah and Jesus knows exactly what the bible means.
When a "title" is applied to Jehovah and disciples why don't trinitarians?
by booker-t 5 Replies latest watchtower medical
-
-
AuldSoul
Moses will "be" God, for all intents and purposes, as far as the people are concerned. And surely, if the Bible account is to be believed, he was God to them. They did not entreat God for themselves, they begged Moses to do so.
However, if you take the Bible literally in every place, then sure: Moses was also God. God is all and is in all. (Colossians 1:9-18) As are you and the trees in my back yard. It is a very Zen way of looking at the Bible, in my opinion. But I bet you don't take the Bible literally in every place.
With regard to Samson, departure of Jehovah is plainly metaphoric of departure of Jehovah's favor as evidenced by departure of Samson's strength. Again, if you wish to read it literally Samson was God until God withdrew (was no longer in) Samson (see above).
I think it is funny watching JWs argue against "false" doctrine and they call their doctrine the "Truth" by contrast ... not because the Bible actively teaches their doctrine with any greater clarity. They simply assert that since these other doctrines are wrong our doctrine in right.
You do that, too, booker-t.
For instance, you assert that "only Jehovah has prophets," however history and the Bible plainly contradict your assertion without any veneer applied. Elijah once challenged over 800 hundred Baal prophets and prophets of Ashtoreth, or did you not read that account?
In modern times, Jehovah has prophets that no God ever called to be prophets. They speak all kinds of things falsely in the name of Jehovah.
For instance, between 1918-1922 a talk was given in many places around the world entitled "The World Has Ended—Millions Now Living Will Never Die" yet if these same false prophet's current teachings are correct then the very title of the talk contained two lies put forth in Jehovah's name. (1) The world had not ended by 1918. (2) According to their current doctrine and population statistics provided by Washington D.C.'s Population Research Bureau there are not millions who were alive in 1918 who will survive Armageddon, more like barely 2,000 who will "Never Die."
Here is another example: They proclaim (1) that they have a life-saving message. They also state (2) that the preaching of this message is the most important work for our time. They also state (3) that the sole mark for salvation is baptism as a publicly identified servant of Jehovah (see "secretary's inkhorn" on Watchtower Library CD-ROM).
While the statistics they publish at the end of the year indicate the total number of active publishers and not the number of baptized active publishers, even if we use the much higher number of active publishers as those who will be spared at Armageddon population growth is outstripping organizational growth by a lot of people every year. For instance, according to the current doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses, last year JW preaching efforts condemned at least an additional 640,000 people to death. For every year that the population growth exceeds organizational growth there are far more who will killed at Armageddon.
Yet, I am supposed to believe that the God these people claim to serve wants everyone to attain to repentance and doesn't want any destroyed. Your own body of doctrine gives the lie to your claim. If you are right God wants a lot more people to die, and that's why he keeps letting population growth outstrip the growth of His only true religion.
While I sit back and observe that if the true God really wants everyone to be saved, and intends to destroy any who do not respond, He would hardly call up a people who falsely prophesy on every occasion where they utter prophecy in His name (i.e. if they are his witnesses and a people for his name, every prophesy they utter is automatically uttered in his name). (Isaiah 43:10) He would hardly send a people who would be preaching exactly what His own Son warned people to ignore. (Matthew 24:23-28; Luke 21:8, 9)
Interestingly, if we tie Luke 21:8, 9 in with the account about Moses that you mentioned earlier we get the idea that maybe Jesus meant these deceivers would present themselves as divinely authorized heralds of Christ's presence. As an aside, the subtitle to the original Zion's Watchtower was what, again? Oh yeah, "and Herald of Christ's Presence" ... and they weren't heralding an impending presence in 1879, were they booker-t. They weren't heralding that Christ was about to arrive and that they knew where he would be, were they? They were actively heralding that Christ's had arrived in 1874, was enthroned in 1878, and that he would bring Armageddon in 1914 or 1915.
In other words, they were among those Jesus describes in Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
In context, just preceding these words which Jehovah's Witnesses correctly apply to all false religionists (while incorrectly excluding themselves), we find other words which Jehovah's Witnesses craftily toy with until they do not mean at all what they say they mean. Consider Matthew 7:15-20:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
booker-t, what fruit does a false prophet bear, if not false prophecies? How else would the Jewish disciples to whom Jesus was reportedly speaking identify a false prophet? They only knew one kind of false prophet.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 — But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
They didn't know covering up child molestation was the fruit of a false prophet, they would have called that the fruit of a wicked man. False prophets prophesied falsely or prophesied in the name of other Gods.
I hope you will give this post the same consideration that I gave to yours. I am very curious how you can justify pointing your fingers at the straws in the religions of others while ignoring the rafters so plainly apparent in your own religion. I look forward to a thoughtful reply.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
carla
Sorry but your arguments make absolutely no sense to me at all. I've never heard that if a word is used for God and someone else that makes them the same person, and I come from a Trinitarian backround. Your example of the word 'departed' is that just a bad analogy for your or do you believe that is what Trinitarians believe? Have you ever read 'Yes, You Should Believe in the Trinity' by Harvey? Maybe because it is geared towards jw's you could understand what Trinitarians are talking about. I find that jw's or those who still hold onto many of the beliefs and I often are speaking in two different languages so we can never really make our points. There is vast language barrier when trying to even discuss the Trinity with a jw. The rest of your post makes no sense to me either.
I again asked my uncle the same question what about the disciples that Jesus is ordering the enemies to worship.------- What?
-
booker-t
Carla, you must live in La,la land if you say you come from a "trinitarian" background and you have never heard "trinitarians" make the claim that Jesus is Jehovah because both are called "first and the last" both are called "God" both are called "Shepherd" both are called "Savior" both can forgive sins, both are called "Rock" and so on. I remember when I used to work at my first job and 1/2 the staff were Born-Again Christians they were always showing me these verses trying to prove that Jesus must be Jehovah because they shared many titles. I would have to say either you are in "denial" or you are not telling the truth. And where in the post did I say I was a JW's or associated with the JW's? Everytime a person says that they don't believe in the Trinity, Trinitarians right away assume that they are affliated with JW's. Many Christians don't believe in the Trinity but many of them don't have the guts to speak up against it.
-
Triple A
You are right that JWs are not the only religions that deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Here are a few more: Jewish, Hinduism, Buddhism, Armstrongism, African traditional religions, Islam, New Age movements, Unification Church, Unitarianism, Christian Science Church, P hiladelphia Church of God, Christadelphians, Scientology and Dianetics, Satanism, Witchcraft, Russellites, Dawn Bible Student, Chicago Bible Students, and Muslims.
-
carla
Your second post I understand. I still have never heard any Christian use your 'departed' example. Your first post, I have never heard a Trinatarian use many of your examples. Maybe you confused them yourself? I think you have taken things out of context and furthermore Trinitarians do not say Jesus is Jehovah. Like many, I don't even accept the word 'jehovah'. So this would be a very long conversation. There have been many, many threads on this subject. I suggest if you really want to learn what Trinitarians think to do some research. Here are a few places to start-
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin7.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html