Please help...lots of questions

by KanoasDestiny 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

KanoasDestiny

Quite a few of my family members are JW's, and I attended the meetings until I was 7 years old when my mom was disfellowhipped. I have always had an interest in God but I truly don't know where I feel I belong church-wise. I agree mostly with the JW, but there are still things that I don't agree with, and to attend the Kingdom Hall, knowing that I don't agree with them 100% feels wrong. But I have not found my place in any other religion either. I have a family member that was trying to preach to me, so I made a list of all the questions I had, and I haven't heard from her since. I don't know if she was affended or just couldn't provide answers. Truthfully, I have always considered myself more spirtual than religious. To me, if you live your life by the bible, and do God's will, you should be one of the "true religion". I don't feel like it depends on whether you call yourself a catholic, christian, buddist, etc. Not that I agree with all practices done by those religions but I have done ALOT of research and I can see where each religion is right in their beliefs. I've known people who were not raised as witnesses, yet they seemed more pure in their practices, than the witness's I've met. Ok, so I'll list my questions and I am hoping that some of the witnesses here can answer them for me.
1. Why do JW's choose not to celebrate birthdays? I understand that the bible lists 3 birthdays that all ended in disaster, but just because the bible listed those, does it mean we are not supposed to celebrate them? I mean, is it written anywhere that we must ABSOLUTELY not celebrate them? Or just because it doesn't tell us to or say it's ok to, we're not supposed to? If the bad things happening on birthdays in the bible are what we are supposed to go off of, then what about all the other things that aren't mentioned in the bible? I know that people are killed/die on their anniversaries, during birth, on their wedding days...but even if these accounts aren't spoken of in the bible, are they ok to celebrate? And why is it ok to celebrate the upcoming arrival of a baby with a shower and then gifts at birth, but you can't celebrate that it's already been here for a year? Why can you celebrate being with someone for a year, but not having a child for a year? I know that God commanded us to celebrate Jesus' death, but where did he say to NOT celebrate his birth?
2. Why do Jehovah Witnesses think that women can be apart of the 144,000? In revelations, it says that the 144,000 are virgin "men" who have not defiled themselves with women. Why would women be considered apart of that group? I've been told that the witnesses believe that it is just metaphoric for people who haven't lived their life in sin, but why would the witnesses believe things are metaphoric? Why not take the bible as it is written? If it was men and women, why wouldn't it say that? And being that the Jehovah's Witnesses religion has only been around since 1870, how can a correct estimate of how many of the 144,000 members are still here on earth be made? What about the people who had received the Holy Spirit before Charles Taze Russell founded his beliefs and began counting?
3. Also with Hell. In revelations, it says that the devil will be hurled with the beast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented for eternaty. Why is it that every other religion takes it for what it actually says, but witnesses don't believe that hell is a fiery pit where you will be tormented for ever? If Jehovah wanted it to mean "cease to exist", why wouldn't he just have had the person who wrote revelations say that?
4. Why don't the witnesses read from the missing parts of the bible? As an example, the Apocrypha was the Inter-Testament that falls chronologically between the old testament and the new testament. Why don't the witnesses read this to learn all the words/stories of God?
5. I had a family member get upset with me because I called the Kindom Hall a church. She felt I was associating her religion with other religions. But truthfully, they are all connected. JW's read from the King James Bible which was a revision of the Bishop's bible, (with new manuscripts added). The Bishop's bible was published in 1568, and originated from the Roman Catholic religion. So if witnesses get so upset about being compared to other religions, why would they read from a bible that originated from another religion?
6. What if someone who was disfellowshipped, became baptised into another church? Are they still to be ignored and casted out? My mom said that it would be the same as still being disfellowshipped...but why? Isnt the point of being baptised to promise your life to God and doing his will? If thats the case, why would it matter which church you were in when you did it, as long as your heart was truly set on serving God? Basically my question is...are you baptized to devote yourself to God or to the church?
I think that's about it. Please offer any answers that you can. Thank you.
Sara
kwintestal

Why do JW's choose not to celebrate birthdays? I understand that the bible lists 3 birthdays that all ended in disaster, but just because the bible listed those, does it mean we are not supposed to celebrate them? I mean, is it written anywhere that we must ABSOLUTELY not celebrate them? Or just because it doesn't tell us to or say it's ok to, we're not supposed to? If the bad things happening on birthdays in the bible are what we are supposed to go off of, then what about all the other things that aren't mentioned in the bible? I know that people are killed/die on their anniversaries, during birth, on their wedding days...but even if these accounts aren't spoken of in the bible, are they ok to celebrate? And why is it ok to celebrate the upcoming arrival of a baby with a shower and then gifts at birth, but you can't celebrate that it's already been here for a year? Why can you celebrate being with someone for a year, but not having a child for a year? I know that God commanded us to celebrate Jesus' death, but where did he say to NOT celebrate his birth?
There are a few things that the bible has nothing good to say about. The bible says nothing good about dogs and everytime they're mentioned something "bad" happens, does that mean we shouldn't have one as a pet? Actually, the bible mentions one other birthday that you didn't mention, and that is in Job. I'm not 100% sure of the scripture but it is written that Job had a celebration feast for each of his children "on their day" and used the occasion as a time to make a special sacrifice to God in case they had sinned in the previous year. Sounds like a good birthday experience in the bible to me. Also, in regards to Jesus, the angels even celebrated his birth, why shouldn't believers do so?
Why do Jehovah Witnesses think that women can be apart of the 144,000? In revelations, it says that the 144,000 are virgin "men" who have not defiled themselves with women. Why would women be considered apart of that group? I've been told that the witnesses believe that it is just metaphoric for people who haven't lived their life in sin, but why would the witnesses believe things are metaphoric? Why not take the bible as it is written? If it was men and women, why wouldn't it say that? And being that the Jehovah's Witnesses religion has only been around since 1870, how can a correct estimate of how many of the 144,000 members are still here on earth be made? What about the people who had received the Holy Spirit before Charles Taze Russell founded his beliefs and began counting?
Do you really think you're going to find 144,000 virgins in one small religious group? They've got to fill in the number somehow. The problem is they don't know what to take literally and what to take metaphorically. There's one verse and they arbitrarily switch between the two as it suits their views of today. Maybe tomorrow that 144,000 will be figurative thus explaining why the memorial partakers numbers aren't going down at all.
Also with Hell. In revelations, it says that the devil will be hurled with the beast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented for eternaty. Why is it that every other religion takes it for what it actually says, but witnesses don't believe that hell is a fiery pit where you will be tormented for ever? If Jehovah wanted it to mean "cease to exist", why wouldn't he just have had the person who wrote revelations say that?
Why do the JW's believe that people will live forever on earth while most others believe they'll go to heaven? Give 100 people 100 years to go over 100 texts independant of each other and they'll come up with 100 different beliefs from them. That's the long and the short of it.
Why don't the witnesses read from the missing parts of the bible? As an example, the Apocrypha was the Inter-Testament that falls chronologically between the old testament and the new testament. Why don't the witnesses read this to learn all the words/stories of God?
They're scared of them, and for the most part the average JW doesn't even know they exsist. Why do they only read from the parts of the NT cannon chosen by the then "apostate" Catholic church in the 4th century? Why don't they look at any of the other gospel accounts? Plain and simple, it doesn't suit their pre-concieved ideas and therefore is left out. It's the same reason they don't quote from most scientific journals, and if they do it's usually out of context.
I had a family member get upset with me because I called the Kindom Hall a church. She felt I was associating her religion with other religions. But truthfully, they are all connected. JW's read from the King James Bible which was a revision of the Bishop's bible, (with new manuscripts added). The Bishop's bible was published in 1568, and originated from the Roman Catholic religion. So if witnesses get so upset about being compared to other religions, why would they read from a bible that originated from another religion?
Your family member was wrong in getting upset about it. Recently the WT spokesman has called themselves a "church" and I'll assume it's to make the JW's seem a little more mainstream. It'll just take a while for the average JW to catch on, and they may never.
What if someone who was disfellowshipped, became baptised into another church? Are they still to be ignored and casted out? My mom said that it would be the same as still being disfellowshipped...but why? Isnt the point of being baptised to promise your life to God and doing his will? If thats the case, why would it matter which church you were in when you did it, as long as your heart was truly set on serving God? Basically my question is...are you baptized to devote yourself to God or to the church?
With the JW's, when you get baptized you commit yourself as much to the church (WTBTS) as you do to God. That's what you're agreeing to when you say "YES" to those questions before your baptism.
Kwin
jschwehm

The Bishop's bible was published in 1568, and originated from the Roman Catholic religion.
Good point. I often ask JWs why they use a collection of books known as the New Testament that was compiled by the Bishops of the Catholic Church. I never seem to get an answer to that question.
You might find some of the links on my website helpful.
www.catholicxjw.com
If you have any questions feel free to email me at [email protected]
Enjoy the journey you are on.
Jeff S.
stevenyc

Hi KanoasDestiny, and welcome to JWD.

First off I think you should know that the majority of posters here are either ex-JWs or disillusioned JWs. For the record I'm in the "ex" category.

With each of your questions there are two possible answers, the JW doctrinal reason and the likely reason. You seam to know the doctrinal reasons so I wont bother with them. So, I'll have a go at the likely reasons.

1) Why don't JDs celebrate birthdays? For any sect or cult to be recognized as an entity all of itself it requires identifying markers. Try it for yourself. Make a list of say five sects/cults and there will be some nuances only available to each group. Not celebrating birthdays is one such nuance of the JWs. If you get to read more posts here you'll see some posters talking about how the watchtower society is becoming more 'mainstream'. This, in essence, is referring to the organization dropping some of its particular nuances, or 'identifying markers'. It does this when those markers are interfering with recruitment and attrition. For example voting and blood.

2) Why do Jehovah Witnesses think that women can be a part of the 144,000? Well, technically they can say whatever they like about this as it's an obviously symbolic number. You know, the whole 12 X 12 thing. Because this is from a non-tangable source, anything you say goes. (Well, pretty much anything). You need to research on what brought this 144000 nuance about in the first place. The 'Best Of' forum here at JWD is a great place to start. But, briefly, once this little sect started to grow, they quickly ran out of tickets to heaven. They couldn't drop their 144000 policy so they altered it. Hence, "the earthly hope" slogan was born.

3) Hell? See point 1. This was from Russell. And, it is one of the original doctrines. It wasn't so much that he could prove that hell didn't exist, but, he couldn't see how God would torture people for eternity.

4) Why don't the witnesses read from the missing parts of the bible? Because they don't need to. But, you could bet you bottom dollar that if some ancient text appeared containing words which mirrored JW doctrine, they would use it.

5) Bibles, Kingdoms Halls, and Church? Calling a Kingdom Hall, a Kingdom Hall and not a church is all part of 1, above. The JWs don't consider themselves to be part of a religion or sect. Their thoughts are isolated or separate from normal society. Going to church would be blasphemy. Going to a Kingdom Hall is righteous. As far as the bible is concerned I would recommend you do some research of the authorship of the New World Translation. Once again the "Best Of" section is a great place to start. When you discover that there were no scholars involved and works of a spiritualist used in reference, then any point made thereafter is moot.

6) A disfellowshipped person attending a church? JWs don't go to church. JWs go to the Kingdom Hall! If someone not disfellowshipped was to regularly attend church, they would be disfellowshipped. The JWs are an isolation sect. You know the mantra: "no part of this world". This is one of the factors that make some people define them as a cult. The adherents follow not God but the "Faithful and Discreet Slave'. If you are in the Judicial Committee as a suspected 'apostate' then one of the questions asked of you is "Do you believe that the Faithful and Discreet Slave is Gods directed organization on Earth?". You can say to an Elder, "I'm have doubts about Jehovah" and get comfort. You cannot say "I'm having doubts about the society".

steve
A Paduan
I agree mostly with the JW
....but they aren't christian
- the following are my opinions for your answers
Why do JW's choose not to celebrate birthdays?
In the bible satan always 'breaks the party up' - but for some reason they think it is God who doesn't like birthdays - I think it stems from a fundamental notion of life according to the flesh. In this case prosperity=god likes me and suffering=god hates me. But it remains that biblically satan hates birthday parties and jws go along with that, and also have the audacity to imply that God is envious.
Which is another issue with jws - language - they don't understand english, and are swayed by various word distortions eg.
- jealous originates as does zeal = being a guarded concern over (but in jw: jealous = envy)
- envy = displeasure at another receiving a good (but in jw: envy = covet)
- covet = long for, desire
Such distortions may not seem like such a big deal, but they are when a cult makes a big deal out of them. eg. "God is jealous"
2. Why do Jehovah Witnesses think that women can be apart of the 144,000? In revelations, it says that the 144,000 are virgin "men" who have not defiled themselves with women.
Men? I don't think it says "men" just virgins - if you take that literally, did you ever think they might be children ? no lie was found in their mouth.
The arrogance of jws over that 144000 thing is a freak of nature.
3. Also with Hell. If Jehovah wanted it to mean "cease to exist", why wouldn't he just have had the person who wrote revelations say that?
Yep. Hell is probably a burning desire that someone else keeps telling you will be satisfied "soon".
4. Why don't the witnesses read from the missing parts of the bible?
Well, have you read Sussanah ? It debunks their two witness thing - strips them as being credible judges.
5. I had a family member get upset with me because I called the Kindom Hall a church. She felt I was associating her religion with other religions.
This is a standard case (among many) of the use of cognitive dissonance. Have you seen the parrot sketch in Monty Python ? The amount that one needs to lie to oneself to be a "knowlegeable jw" is unhealthy.
6. What if someone who was disfellowshipped, became baptised into another church? Are they still to be ignored and casted out?
LOL.......sorry, don't even know where to start with that.........you obviously do not know a lot about these people..........many will dump their own children.
potleg

Excellent questions,well thought out. If you examine the witness teachings in depth you'll discover these few questions are just the tip of the iceburg. The more you look the more absurdities and hypocracy you'll find. Why is one part of Revelation taken literally and another is symbolic? You may find yourself asking why witnesses are discouraged from reasoning as you do, why is it wrong to speak up and speak out if you don't agree or understand? And by the way, if you're a woman doing this it's really bad.
VanillaMocha73

I will try to answer your questions impartially, as one who was raised a JW for the past 30 years. These are the basic facts - no emotions expressed...
1. Why do JW's choose not to celebrate birthdays?
*** g81 12/22 pp. 12-13 Birthday Celebrations—How Did They Get Started? ***

Birthdays and Astrology

Of course, early Christians had reasons of their own for not celebrating birthdays. Back then birthdays had strong connections with pagan religion that are less noticeable today. “The custom of commemorating the day of birth is connected . . . in its content, with certain primitive religious principles,” points out the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics. What principles?
Spiritism, for one. “The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. They called the spirit the genius. This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint.”—The Lore of Birthdays, Ralph and Adelin Linton.
Another reason for early Christians to avoid birthdays was the connection with astrology. “The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope,” say the Lintons. To early Christians astrology was associated with Eastern religions, Roman Stoicism and the twisted thinking of the Gnostics. Christians wanted no part of that!
*** rs p. 69 - p. 70 Birthday ***

What is the origin of popular customs associated with birthday celebrations?
“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
“The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. . . . Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . Originally the idea was rooted in magic. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.”—The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp. 8, 18-20.
2. Why do Jehovah Witnesses think that women can be apart of the 144,000?
*** it-2 p. 1199 Woman ***
Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned.
3. Also with Hell. Why is it that every other religion takes it for what it actually says, but witnesses don't believe that hell is a fiery pit where you will be tormented for ever?
Good question - long answer. The long and the short of it is that the JWs believe that the soul just ceases to exist - there is not immortality. Therefore, hell would not work.
4. Why don't the witnesses read from the missing parts of the bible?
*** w60 2/1 p. 86 The Apocrypha—of God or of Men? ***
Truly the Apocrypha is not of God but of men. What a lack of understanding and appreciation to place its writings on the same plane as those of God’s Word, the Bible! Well can Paul’s warning against paying attention to Jewish fables be applied to the Apocrypha.—Titus 1:14
5. I had a family member get upset with me because I called the Kindom Hall a church.
They do have their own Bible. There is a basic fear of what is called Christendom, or other churches. They are referred to as a harlot, Babylon the Great.
6. What if someone who was disfellowshipped, became baptised into another church? Are they still to be ignored and casted out?
Yes, you are baptized into the church and organization. You pledge your allegiance to them. Any other church is viewed as being part of Satan's world.
*** w52 10/15 p. 613 “Not the Kind That Shrink Back” ***
Those who shrink back are the ones Peter said fit the true proverb: “The dog has turned back to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.” (2 Pet. 2:22, NW) They had been a part of the old world system of things, then came into association with the new world society and fed upon the clean spiritual food on Jehovah’s table, “a feast of fat things,” and thereafter turned back to Satan’s world, where “all tables are full of filthy vomit, no place is clean”. (Isa. 25:6; 28:8, AT) The Christian’s food is not just the nourishing truths in the Bible, but also the doing of God’s will, as Jesus said: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34, NW) It is not just a matter of hearing God’s words, but a matter of doing them also. (Jas. 1:22) When one quits studying and doing God’s will, he returns to the hearing and practicing of the world’s wordy propagandas, rolling in its mire like the washed sow returning to her muddy wallow.
lfcviking

Also with Hell. In revelations, it says that the devil will be hurled with the beast into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented for eternaty. Why is it that every other religion takes it for what it actually says, but witnesses don't believe that hell is a fiery pit where you will be tormented for ever?
The JW's argue that because the 'wild beast' and 'false prophet' (mentioned in the same verse) have symbolic meanings, the term 'tormented day & night forever' must be symbolic also and hence is not real.
I as an ex JW don't necessarily agree with that i'm just repeating what i heard at a Sunday morning talk.
LFCV
A Paduan

the term 'tormented day & night forever' must be symbolic also and hence is not real.
So "tormented" is a symbol for "nothing" --- makes perfect sense (not)
AllAlongTheWatchtower

Heh...if you're a nonbelieving spouse begging for a little oral nookie from your mate, then I suppose tormented and nothing could quite well go hand in hand...

Please help...lots of questions

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