Debate With Elder - Part 2 (Organization)

by stevieb1 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    I really appreciated your input on my previous thread which dealt with a rebuttal to a JW elder who has written a piece "defending" the premise that Jehovah is using an organization today to dispense spiritual truth. Here is part two of this item. The second part of the article begins by implying that the modern day organization is synonymous with the "congregation of the living God" and is "God's household," a "pillar and support of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

    The following is a direct quote from his article:

    "That individual faithful Christians would be present in the generation prior to the great tribulation is established by reference to the holy ones who are gathered together from the four winds in Matt. 2$:22,24,31. Paul uses the pronoun 'we' when referring to such ones in 1 Thess. 4:15,17 and 1 Cor. 15:51 (two passages applied to the last days). If we judge by Paul's customary usage, the references must be to the Christian congregation. Nowhere in these passages is there any hint that the congregation is now merely a mystical entity. In fact, when the writer of Hebrews is encouraging his readers not to 'miss the meetings' (Heb. 10:25,26), he adds the comment 'and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near'. If we acknowledge that the 'day' is the 'day of the Lord', we are bound to accept that Christians might still be gathering for their meetings in the last days.

    "Revelation 13:7,10,15, further identify the holy ones as those who are persecuted for their refusal to take up the sword and worship the beast. In chapter 18:4 thw words of Isaiah and Jeremiah (Isa.48:20, 52:11, Jer.50:8, 51:6, 45) originally spoken to ancient Israel were transwferred to those now called "my people". The implication seems obvious. Just as the Israelites returned from Babylon, so God's latter day people would, as a group, flee from Babylon the Great. This likening of the congregation of the holy ones to the repatriated Jews is found throughout the apocalyptic writings. Who would doubt for instance, that the prophecy of Rev.11 is attributing the 'two witnesses' the priestly functions of Joshua and the governmental function of Zerubbabel, since the language is straight from the post-exilic book of Zechariah? The passage alluded to (chap.4) focuses on divine appointment and seems to present the two anointed ones as receptacles and transmitters of the holy spirit. Elsewhere in Rev.11, the two witnesses are given authority similar to that of Moses and Elijah. It appears to me, therefore, that irrespective of the actual identity of the two witnesses, the passage clearly asserts the existence of some entity in the last days with divine backing and authority. Additionally, we might add, this instrument of God "torments" opposers earthwide (vs.10) and is temporarily conquered by the beast." END OF DIRECT QUOTE

    What would you response be to this material?

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    How deeply buried is the 1st in the series? Give me a hint where to look.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • gumby
    gumby

    Ask the elder this. Since the witnesses believe that there has been a faithful and discreet slave class ALWAYS since pentecost feeding the sheep at the proper time and this has went on CONTINUALLY since pentecost (as many references in the wt. will testify) then WHO did ct.russell hook up with when he came on the scene? Who was this slave class when he started his ministry and why did he not just simply join in with them? If you read "jw's in the 20th century" on his beginning's...you will find there was NO slave class for him to join in with. The book say's HE turned the light on as it was god's due time. Ask the elder these things and see what he say's. Good luck!!! OOOOOOPS! I mean good success.

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    The last response to Part One of this debate can be found dated Oct 1 @ 9.36. I originally posted Part 1 yesterday.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    What I wrote in Part 1 applies here as well: nothing wrong with Christians getting together in local congregations, but that doesn't imply a larger hierarchical organizational structure.

    I'm more curious why this elder doesn't find the information he needs on the subject within the Society's writings, but must resort to writing something himself. Is he running ahead? Didn't Jehovah provide the needed food at the proper time? Is Jehovah's table of spiritual banquet lacking?

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy,

    This is a jumble of ideas, implications, and inuendos - let alone private interpretation of scripture by this elder.

    Nowhere in these passages is there any hint that the congregation is now merely a mystical entity.

    "Merely a mystical entity?" Good grief - what is faith, but the "assured expectation of things to come." It is mystical by nature because God is spiritual ie mystical. Sooooo, which is your elder implying stronger: spiritual faith in God or the congregational meetings and WTBTS? Remember? That's what jw's used to use against the churches of Christendom - they put more faith in the buildings and church membership than God. Your elder is singing the same tune.

    In fact, when the writer of Hebrews is encouraging his readers not to 'miss the meetings' (Heb. 10:25,26), he adds the comment 'and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near'.

    "Hebrews 10:25, 26:not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one aother, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near. For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longe any sacrifice for sins left, NWT"

    Your elder is misquoting his bible and equating "the meetings" with "gathering of ourselves together." Could be the same thing - but not necessarily - but he's definitely putting words into his God's mouth.

    If we acknowledge that the 'day' is the 'day of the Lord', we are bound to accept that Christians might still be gathering for their meetings in the last days. (bold added)

    Big IF - and again he's misapplying scripture and prophecy. To use the words "we are bound to accept" and "might" in the same sentence thought is working against the idea. Anyone could agree with the "might" part. No one can prove the "if" part, and he's negated the "bound" part by using the "might" part.

    "Revelation 13:7,10,15, further identify the holy ones as those who are persecuted for their refusal to take up the sword and worship the beast.

    If you haven't done so, you need to do some reading on this forum within the last week on the United Nations (the Beast, or Image of the Beast, spoken of in Revelation as interpreted by the WTBTS) - and then share the proof found on these threads and the United Nations website for Non-Governmental Organizations - NGOs & DPIs (which the WTBTS applied and was approved for) with your woefully ignorant elder.

    The "holy ones" he's referring to, the 144,000, Anointed, Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, Governing Body - whatever you want to call them, are now an approved, solicitated, part of the United Nations. The holy ones, according to the WTBTS, have had sexual intercourse with the Image of the Wild Beast of Revelation. Not only have they not been persecuted by the Wild Beast, they have been approved and the proof is on that website.

    Use the proof to help "enlighten" your elder's misconceptions.

    waiting

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Mind you I write from a Catholic world view. I think it's clear that there was some form of unity amongst the various congregations of 1st Century Christians, but NOTHING as organized as the WTS would have one beleive. The big question to ask the Elder is, "Why should one believe the WTS is the organization through which God has chosen to work in the modern era. Why are key elements of 1st Century worship NOT in the Kingdom Hall, and why are KEY DOCTRINES of the WTS not found amongst 1st Century Christians."

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    I appreciate your comments. Each time I read the article this elder has provided, the more ludicrous some of the statements appear to be. Part 3 will be posted soon.

    Agape

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