by ThomasCovenant 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi
Just a little counter arguement I have used before against belief in the Flood of Noah with a JW.
Jesus talks about the days of Noah ..........therefore Noah must have existed
Tony Blair, discussing child poverty, talks about Oliver Twist ......... therefore Oliver Twist must have existed.
Thanks
Thomas Covenant
ThomasCovenant
I think you may have missed the point. While Oliver Twist was a fictional character, Dickens was describing the very real conditions that existed in London and England at the time. Are you suggesting that Noah was fictional but the "days of Noah" were real?
Hi
Sorry if it didn't seem clear.
What I mean is the arguement put forward by 'brothers' and the Society is that Jesus' mentioning of Noah and the Flood is extra proof that the Flood must have happened as per JW land.
My arguement is, just because Jesus mentions Noah it doesn't mean he believed Noah was a real person in history.
If Tony Blair said ''' we mustn't have conditions like the days of Oliver Twist for our children '', it doesn't follow that Mr Blair believes Oliver Twist was a real person anymore than his audience would. But the audience would know what point he was trying to get across. ( which is more than can be said for me lol)
Thanks
Thomas Covenant
ThomasCovenant
I think the scriptures are clear when Jesus used parables or illustrations with fictional characters to make a point. The context is usually quite clear. (Remember his disciples questioning him about the meanings of some of his parables?) But his references to the events in the O.T. indicate that he did believe in those as historical and factual as did his Jewish listeners. Otherwise, it would would not have made sense to his audience.
I can't really comment on Tony Blair's comments. (Politicians aren't known for their consistencies or reliablities.) But it would seem unfair to compare him with Jesus.
The point of that statement isn`t whether or not Noah ever existed (of course, you know that already, but bear with me). Jesus, being a child of his time (if he existed, that is, and said the things recoreded in the Gospels) being a child of his time, most probably believed that Noah existed, and that the flood was literal. But, his point is not to neither deny nor affirm his belief in Noah and the events of his day, but to use the "flood" as a parable to show how surprised and how unprepared people will be "when the son of man returns" etc. BUT:
The problem is that the JWs are so inconsistent it makes me wanna puke. Because they so freely and willingly use the view "oh its just a parable" on OTHER parts of the Bible, parts that do NOT fit their escathology, such as the parable of LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN in Luke, 16. In fact, Jesus is using THIS parable in the EXACT same manner as he uses the "days of Noah" as a parable for how it will be when "the son of man" returns! BUT, this doesn`t suit the jws of course, so they just dismiss it as a "parable". But there is nothing in THIS parable EITHER (just as in the one about Noah) that would indicate that Jesus did NOT believe in a place of torment ("hell") in which the souls are conscious, and in the same manner, a HEAVEN, in which the souls are also conscious, as they are safe "in the bossom of Abraham".
Go figure.
