Kings of Isreal and 607/586

by GramblingMan 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  GramblingMan

  Can someone help me out here, I have been going back and forth with the JW study, Regarding 586/607, from reading what has been written here and visiting the library.

  I have been able to present what I understand. Now he is saying that the JW also were able to locate the date for the Fall of Jerusalem based on the Kings of Isreal. I serious doubt it, he should me the list of Jews Kings in the "Insight on the scriptures" but could tell me how they arrived at the start date for the 1st King. He said they used the bible. Is thie even possible?
• 

  Atlantis

  GramblingMan:

  This might help some.

  http://www.afcministry.com/The_Destruction_of_Jerusalem.htm

  Cheers! Atlantis-
• 

  jwfacts

  The list of Kings of Israel do not support 607. They have predetermined 607 and then build the list of kings around that. For this reason Watchtower lists can contradict secular dates.

  The Watchtower claim that 539 is an absolute date, and use this as their starting point. The "Watchtower interpretation" of the 70 years means the fall must have been 607. All kings are then calculated backwards from there. Therefore the Watchtower chronology often does not match other sources and churches, such as when working out the date for the creation of Adam as well.
• 

  Doug Mason

  The Scriptures do not provide any dates in terms of a "BCE" calendar (Julian or Gregorian).
  
  The WTS relies on secular historians for dates in terms of our calendars.
  
  They accept 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon (used to say 538 BCE until 1942, when Parker and Dubberstein produced their study).
  
  But 539 is not an Absolute Date. It is a date calculated from Absolute Dates such as 568 BCE for Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year (which the WTS does not accept) and then using the list of kings for Babylon (again which the WTS does not accept).
  
  So the WTS relies on a date that is provided by secular historians but does not accept the method used by those secular sources to arrive at that date.
  
  If you write directly to me, I might be able to keep on helping you handle specific questions.
  
  Doug
• 

  TheListener

  There is no concrete way that I've seen to independently date the start of the rule of Saul. You can work backwords from a given point but depending on where you start... you get the picture.
• 

  jwfacts

  If you use an encyclopedia you will find the dates provided for the rule of Israelite kings varies from Watchtower chronology. Your study conductor seems to have made an untested assumption.

  Eg Wikipedia - reign of Zedekiah to 597 BCE-587 BCE, while E. R. Thiele to 597 BCE-586 BCE

  Both William F. Albright and E. R. Thiele agree on dating his reign to 609 BC-598 BC

  The Hebrew Bible places David's reign from around 1005 BCE until around 965 BCE

  Now compare this to

  ***

  it-1pp.464-466Chronology***

  THETWELVE-TRIBEKINGDOM

  Dates B.C.E.

  SAUL began to rule as king 1117

  over all 12 tribes

  (40 years)

  Prophet: Samuel

  High priests: Ahijah,

  Ahimelech

  Birth of David 1107

  Samuel completed book of c. 1100

  Judges

  Samuel completed book c. 1090

  of Ruth

  Book of 1 Samuel was c. 1078

  completed

  DAVID began to rule as 1077

  king of Judah at Hebron (40)

  Prophets: Nathan, Gad,

  Zadok

  High priest: Abiathar

  David became king over 1070

  all Israel; made

  Jerusalem his capital

  Gad and Nathan completed c. 1040

  2 Samuel

  SOLOMON began to rule as 1037

  king (40)

  Prophets: Nathan, Ahijah,

  Iddo

  High priests: Abiathar,

  Zadok

  Construction of Solomon’s 1034

  temple began

  Temple built by Solomon in 1027

  Jerusalem was completed

  Solomon wrote Song of c. 1020

  Solomon

  Solomon wrote book of b. 1000

  Ecclesiastes

  KINGDOM

  OFJUDAHKINGDOMOFISRAEL

  REHOBOAM began to rule as 997 JEROBOAM began to rule as

  king (17 years); nation king over the northern 10

  split into two kingdoms tribes, apparently first

  from Shechem, then from

  Tirzah (22 years)

  Prophets: Shemaiah, Iddo Prophet: Ahijah

  Shishak of Egypt invaded 993

  Judah and took

  treasures from temple

  in Jerusalem

  ABIJAH (ABIJAM) began to 980

  rule as king (3)

  Prophet: Iddo

  ASA evidently began to rule 978

  (41), but his first regnal

  year counted from 977

  Prophets: Azariah, Oded,

  Hanani

  c. 976 NADAB began to rule as

  king (2)

  c. 975 BAASHA assassinated Nadab

  and then began to rule as

  king (24)

  Prophet: Jehu (son of

  Hanani)

  Zerah the Ethiopian came 967

  against Judah in war

  c. 952 ELAH began to rule as

  king (2)

  c. 951 ZIMRI, a military chief,

  assassinated Elah and then

  ruled as king (7 days)

  c. 951 OMRI, chief of the army,

  began to rule as king (12)

  c. 951 Tibni became king over

  part of the people,

  further dividing the

  nation

  c. 947 Omri overcame Tibni’s

  opposition and became

  sole ruler in Israel

  c. 945 Omri bought the mountain

  of Samaria and built

  his capital there

  c. 940 AHAB began to rule as

  king (22)

  Prophets: Elijah,

  Micaiah

  JEHOSHAPHAT evidently began 937

  to rule (25), but his first

  regnal year counted

  from 936

  Prophets: Jehu (son of

  Hanani), Eliezer, Jahaziel

  High priest: Amariah

  c. 920 AHAZIAH, son of Ahab,

  ‘became king’ (2);

  evidently his father was

  still living;

  Ahaziah’s years of

  rulership may count

  from c. 919

  Prophet: Elijah

  Jehoram the son of c. 919

  Jehoshaphat became

  associated in some way

  with his father in the

  government

  c. 917 JEHORAM, son of Ahab,

  began to rule as sole king

  of Israel (12); but in at

  least one text the brief

  reign of his brother

  Ahaziah, who died sonless,

  also may have been

  credited to Jehoram

  Prophet: Elisha

  JEHORAM became official 913

  coregent with Jehoshaphat,

  from which time Jehoram’s

  kingship may be counted (8)

  Prophet: Elijah

  Jehoshaphat died and c. 911

  Jehoram became sole

  ruler

  AHAZIAH, son of Jehoram, c. 906

  began to rule (1), though

  perhaps anointed to kingship

  in c. 907

  High priest: Jehoiada

  ATHALIAH usurped the c. 905 JEHU, a military chief,

  throne (6) assassinated Jehoram and

  then began to rule (28);

  but it seems that his

  years of kingship counted

  from c. 904

  Prophet: Elisha

  JEHOASH, son of Ahaziah,

  began to rule as king (40) 898

  High priest: Jehoiada

  876 JEHOAHAZ began to rule as

  king (17)

  c. 862 Jehoash evidently became

  associated in the

  kingship with his

  father, Jehoahaz

  c. 859 JEHOASH, son of Jehoahaz,

  began to rule as sole king

  of Israel (16)

  Prophet: Elisha

  AMAZIAH began to rule as 858

  king (29)

  Jehoash of Israel a. 858

  captured Amaziah,

  breached the wall of

  Jerusalem, and took

  treasures from temple

  c. 844 JEROBOAM II began to rule

  as king (41)

  Prophets: Jonah, Hosea,

  Amos

  Book of Jonah was written

  UZZIAH (AZARIAH) began to 829

  rule as king (52)

  Prophets: Hosea, Joel (?),

  Isaiah

  High priest: Azariah (II)

  Book of Joel was perhaps c. 820

  written

  Uzziah ‘became king’ in c. 818

  some special sense,

  possibly now free from

  domination of Jeroboam II

  Book of Amos was written c. 804

  c. 803 ZECHARIAH ‘began to reign’

  in some sense, but

  evidently the kingship was

  not fully confirmed as his

  until c. 792 (6 months)

  c. 791 SHALLUM assassinated

  Zechariah and then ruled

  as king (1 month)

  c. 791 MENAHEM assassinated

  Shallum and then began to

  rule, but it seems that

  his years of kingship

  counted from c. 790 (10)

  c. 780 PEKAHIAH began to rule as

  king (2)

  c. 778 PEKAH assassinated

  Pekahiah and then began to

  rule as king (20)

  Prophet: Oded

  JOTHAM began to rule as 777

  king (16)

  Prophets: Micah, Hosea,

  Isaiah

  AHAZ evidently began to rule 762

  (16), but his first regnal

  year counted from 761

  Prophets: Micah, Hosea,

  Isaiah

  High priest: Urijah (?)

  Ahaz evidently became c. 759

  tributary to

  Tiglath-pileser III

  of Assyria

  c. 758 HOSHEA assassinated Pekah

  and then ‘began to reign’

  in place of him, but it

  seems that his control

  became fully established

  or possibly he received

  the backing of the

  Assyrian monarch

  Tiglath-pileser III in

  c. 748 (9 years)

  HEZEKIAH evidently began 746

  to rule (29), but his first

  regnal year counted from 745

  Prophets: Micah, Hosea,

  Isaiah

  High priest: Azariah (II or

  III)

  a. 745 Book of Hosea was

  completed

  742 Assyrian army began siege

  of Samaria

  740 Assyria conquered Samaria,

  subjugated Israel;

  northern kingdom came to

  its end

  Sennacherib invaded Judah 732

  Book of Isaiah was a. 732

  completed

  Book of Micah was completed b. 717

  Compiling of Proverbs was c. 717

  completed

  MANASSEH began to rule as 716

  king (55)

  AMON began to rule as king (2) 661

  JOSIAH began to rule as 659

  king (31)

  Prophets: Zephaniah,

  Jeremiah, the prophetess

  Huldah

  High priest: Hilkiah

  Book of Zephaniah was b. 648

  written

  Book of Nahum was written b. 632

  JEHOAHAZ ruled as king 628

  (3 months)

  JEHOIAKIM began to rule as 628

  king, tributary to Egypt (11)

  Prophets: Habakkuk (?),

  Jeremiah

  Book of Habakkuk was c. 628

  perhaps written

  Nebuchadnezzar II makes 620

  Jehoiakim tributary to

  Babylon

  JEHOIACHIN began to rule as 618

  king (3 months 10 days)

  Nebuchadnezzar II took 617

  Jewish captives and

  temple treasures to

  Babylon

  ZEDEKIAH began to rule as 617

  king (11)

  Prophets: Jeremiah, Ezekiel

  High priest: Seraiah

  Nebuchadnezzar II invaded 609

  Judah again; siege of

  Jerusalem began
• 

  moggy lover

  For centuries scholars have puzzled over the problem of OT chronology and this includes the dating of the sequence of the Hebrew kings. One of the most difficult issues has been the synchronization of the reigns of the various kings. The sacred text, which evangelical Christians accept as fully inspired, provides much information about these kings and how they relate to each other, but when the information is correlated it still leads to difficulties in interpretation. This is not to say that there is no solution to the problem, simply that scholars are uncertain which solution is the right one. As has been mentioned above, Prof Edwin Thiele, professor of Antiquities at Andrews University has made what is considered to be the most comprehensive study of this subject and has published his research in his book "The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings" Even he implies that the problems in dating these times are immense.

  With a blisstful insesitivity to the real facts the WTS has proceeded along its own merry way, setting its own rules and callously disregards even the fundamentals of historically known data. Lets try and sort out some of the more ignorant of WT speculative conclusions.

  1 They first of all pick the wrong termination date for the Hebrew Kings and then simply count back an arbitrarily determined period of years. The termination date they choose is 607 BC for the ending of the Jewish monarchy. This is in diametric contradiction to the well established guidelines maintained by scholars universally, and which have been eloquently proved on this board by many to be 587/586 BC. With angular quotations like "We prefer to believe the Bible rather than secular scholars" they betray their apalling ignorance of facts, since it is these same scholars, evidently spurned by them, which helps establish their favourite date, 539 BC. What they really mean, and what can easily be discerned by those who prefer proof to credulity, is: "We prefer to believe our interpretation of the Bible to secular scholars"

  2 Having established a wrong date, and foisting it on their followers as a non negotiable Article of Faith, they then arbitrarily add 390 years to that date bringing up the date 997 BC as the start of the Jewish monarchy. To the WTS, the period of the Hebrew Kings is a period of 390 years and into this period they force the lengths of the various kings to conform. Now thats interesting. Here we have, on the one hand, humble scholars like Prof Thiele who confess to having only an incomplete understanding of all the complex ramifications of OT chronology, while on the other, we have doctrinaire bigots, sitting in supreme isolation in WT HQ, pretentious "scholars" so erudite that they are unable to distinguish a Greek Alpha from a leg of pork, coming up with a neat round figure.

  3 So how the hell does the WT leadership come up with that figure? They take a highly interpretive portion of Scripture, give it a spin, ignoring even the basics of biblical hermeneutics, and through the alchemy of legerdermain, they arrive at a conclusion that best serves their interest. The portion of Scripture they choose is Ez 4:1-7. In this object lesson that Ezekiel acts out for the Jerusalem inhabitants, he depicts the period of time that they will be punished for their iniquity. He is asked to lie on his left side for 390 days to depict the iniquity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and then to lie on his right side for the iniquity of Judah for a period of 40 days. He is then to count each day for a year.

  Well,what does all this mean? I dunno, and it does'nt bother me that I dont know, because if I wanted to know, I would wade through the mountain of interpretations on the market today. The point is that the WTS pulls this enactment out of its context and applies it to the period of the Jewish joint monarchy. The Insight book pg 462, says: "A helpful guide to the overall length of this period of kings is found at Ez 4:1-7."

  Now here is the interesting bit: They further state: "The two perids of 390 years and 40 years thus symbolized, evidently stood for the overall length of Jehovah's forebearance with the two kingdoms" Whats "evident" about it? On what basis, other than a predetirmined theology, can we connect the lesson of Ezekiel to the overall length of the Jewish kings? Almost all commentators on this portion of Scripture regard the period mentioned by Ezekiel to the period that they will pay for their iniquity. A period of 430 years. [390+40] Since vs 1 of chapter 1 of Ezekiel, is best placed at 597 BC, then 430 years into the future brings us to 167 BC, when, having paid their dues, and with the sucess of the Maccabean revolt, Judah had a king again.

  Why 390 years? To me 390 and 40 makes 430 years. So if the WTS is to use this period for the length of the Jewish monarchy, and if the period terminated in 607 BC, the first king must have come to the throne in 1037 BC, which even the twisted minds of the WT leadership can see is absurd. So to solve the problem, again arbitrarily, they simply make the periods run concurrently. Thus in a convoluted logic that makes the Trinty look trite, 390 + 40 is made to =390!

  Which brings us to WT chronology. All WT publications will list the first Kings, Jeroboam of Israel and Rehoboam of Judah as beginning in 997 BC [as I said adding 607 BC to 390 years]

  Thiele on the other hand lists them as beginning in 930 BC, which means that since the monarchy terminated in 587/586 BC it must have lasted about 344 years.

  This is not to say that we can be dogmatic, because others have other dates: The New Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible lists these kings as 927 BC, and The International Standard Bible Dict gives 931 BC. The reason for the differences is the incomplete information that the Bible gives us for when certain rulers reigned concurrently.

  The important thing,however, is that we know when this complicated mosaic of history ended, and despite the Mad Hatter pronostications of the WTS, this date is 587/586 BC

  Cheers
• 

  Navigator

  I suspect that where the WTS got into trouble with their dates was their failure to understand the practice of conquering powers leaving local kings on their thrones providing that "tribute" (tax) was paid on an annual basis. There would also be an exchange of court personnel (hostages) to ensure that taxes were paid on time. Some scholars believe that the Jewish hero Daniel may have been one of these "hostages" during the initial transfer of regional power from Egypt to Babylon about 605/606 B.C.. The problem with the Jews was their aversion to paying tribute to anyone. The Romans were to experience that as well some 600 years later. The Jews revolted about 587 and the Babylonians sent in an army to "kick ass and take names". After the Jews revolted against the Babylonion appointed Govenor, the Bablyonians destroyed the city and hauled the population into captivity. The WTS seems to be the only group still holding to the 607 date. Everyone else seems to agree that the correct date for the "destruction" of Jerusalem is 586/587BC.The Jews thrived in captivity, especially when the Persians took over.
• 

  tmo1965

  The Bible gives specific lengths of time for the reigns of the Biblical kings, but does not give calendar dates. They didn't have calendars back then and measured time by things like the number of full moons and how long kings held their throne. However, secular historians have pretty much determined exact dates for the reigns of the Biblical kings from ancient cuneforms that have detailed information about who reigned during certain events and the position of astrological objects, like stars and planets in the sky.

  As for the WTS, their dates are completely bogus. Even if you take their starting date of 539 BC, and add of the lengths of the kings' reigns based on the Biblical dates, you don't come up with 607 BC.

  Here is some info about the WTS' dates:

  http://www.reexamine.org/quotes/607bce-table.htm

  http://www.reexamine.org/quotes/607bce.htm

  http://www.disfellowshipped.org/607eng.htm

  http://www.livius.org/ba-bd/babylon/babylonian_empire.html ** (I believe that the WTS had quoted (or misquoted) a source from this site to try to support their bogus dates. I'll see if I find that info for you).