by metatron 3 Replies latest jw friends
see:
A very interesting site. I'm not sure it answers all my questions but if this subject interests you, it's
a good place to start.
I have often found, at critical points in my life, that certain thoughts or events seem to pop out of
nowhere to save my skin ( or employment or sanity). Often these events seem to suggest that a
sort of omniscience about things has allowed me to survive. Exactly what this means in regard
to survival after death, I can only speculate.
metatron
Metatron, I'm sorry - though I do believe in an intangible world, it is just that: belief.
I couldn't get past the ad hominem attacks on the front page.
GentlyFeral
By all means let's call dredging up the disproved frauds of 130 years ago "a rational case."
From The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom's pamphlet, "THE SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF SURVIVAL AFTER DEATH" by The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom, Michael Roll:
THE EXPERIMENTAL PROOF OF SURVIVAL AFTER DEATHWe have had the experimental proof of survival after death ever since Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments in the leading scientific journal of his day - The Quarterly Journal of Science - in 1874. These were repeatable experiments under laboratory conditions. International teams of scientists then repeated the experiments and obtained the same results. People who had once lived on earth came back and proved to these scientific teams that they had conquered death and were still very much alive.
From Wikipedia's William Crooke entry
spiritualismin 1870 crookes decided that science had a duty to study the preternatural phenomena associated with spiritualism (crookes 1870). judging from family letters, crookes had developed a favorable view of spiritualism already by 1869 (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 232–233). Nevertheless, he was determined to conduct his inquiry impartially and described the conditions he imposed on mediums as follows: "It must be at my own house, and my own selection of friends and spectators, under my own conditions, and I may do whatever I like as regards apparatus" (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 177). Among the mediums he studied were Kate Fox, Florence Cook, and Daniel Dunglas Home (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 230-251). Among the phenomena he witnessed were movement of bodies at a distance, rappings, changes in the weights of bodies, levitation, appearance of luminous objects, appearance of phantom figures, appearance of writing without human agency, and circumstances which "point to the agency of an outside intelligence" (Crookes 1874).
To take just the most audacious example of the frauds perpetrated on Crooke, Florence Cook, (see also the book The Medium and the Scientist: The Story of Florence Cook and William Crookes, by Trevor Hall).
From Wikipedia's Florence Cook entry:
A 15 year old Cook, alone in Crookes' house with Crookes' friends and family as witnesses, was said to have materialized the spirit of Katie King, who walked about, talked, allowed herself to be weighed and measured, and even held the family's baby (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 241). The sessions were held in the dark, because Spiritualists believe that materialization requires very dim surroundings to succeed, though occasionally some red light was used and some photographs were taken. As is apparently typical of materialized spirits, Katie's exact height and weight varied, though Katie was always taller than Florence Cook, with a larger face, and different hair and skin. According to those present, the two were both visible at the same moments, so that Florence could not have assumed the role of the spirit (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 235-240).Crookes' report, published in 1874, contained his assertion that Florence Cook, as well as the mediums Kate Fox and Daniel Dunglas Home, were producing genuine preternatural phenomena (Crookes 1874). The publication caused an uproar, and his testimony about Katie King was considered the most outrageous and sensational part of the report. Crookes very nearly lost his Fellowship at the Royal Society, and did not again engage in Spiritualist research (Doyle 1926: volume 1, 169).
From Florence Cook & Katie King, a fuller online account, (with pictures!):
William Crookes was stunned by the overwhelming criticism from his fellow scientists over his investigations of Florence Cook and he soon gave up active investigations, although he remained a staunch supporter of psychical research until his death. He was knighted some 20 years after his work with Florence for during his long and distinguished career he discovered the element thallium and his experiments with vacuums led to the discovery of the cathode ray tube and x-rays.Of course, anyone with access to the Internet could have found these items in far less time that it takes to read Mr Roll's pamphlet. Thanks for making my rather small joke funnier, though.
Dilaceratus::...fundamentalists (and other crackpots who have yet to join the "reality-based" nineteenth century).
As to frauds, there are indeed many examples. I'm afraid that trying to produce this sort of phenomena on demand is just unrealistic
and pushes people towards deception. Uri Geller comes to mind - and I'm not sure that everything he's done has been reproduced by skeptics
(likewise Daniel Home) If the famous Toronto experiments are to be believed , then a playful, believing attitude can trigger some amazing
events.
metatron
