by FreedomFrog 9 Replies latest jw friends
why would you feel it's not probable for spirits or ghosts?
My question came when I read this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/140402/1.ashx
I was reading the thread from Auldsoul and I couldn't help but wonder this question. Many that said they think it's likely are some of the ones that will argue that it is unlikely for spirits or ghosts.
~curious froggy~
Extraterrestrials are possible because the same process which led to life on earth could have occured elsewhere in the univese, i.e., WE are the living evidence that ETs are possible. Spirits and ghosts aren't possible because they are merely the products of a fertile imagination and superstitious beliefs from bygone ages--they don't really exist, here or anywhere else.
Or, could it be that the spirits or ghosts are actually extraterrestrials
Thank you, this is interesting to me.
Is their "proof" that ET exists besides using us as a probable?
I haven't studied on this much so I'm probably getting things wrong but I thought that our existence (from ones that believe this way) happened by chance. If it was by "chance" then how likely is this chance to happen again.
I'm honestly asking this to learn more about why a person thinks one way and not the other. I'm not even sure if I know what to ask...lol
To me, it seems as if both are beliefs in something that hasn't been or can't be proven one way or the other. Again, I haven't done much research on the ET part of it.
Well, maybe it is because we know physical organisms exist and that some are intelligent.
Given our understanding of the Universe and biology, we can say that we are unlikely to be the only planet with life in the Univese and that it is also unlikely to be no other intelligent life in the Universe.
Spirits, ghosts etc have not been proved in the same way physical organisms can be proven to exist. Not once, not ever.
Therefore it is quite reasonable to scoff at the idea of ghosts as wild and unproven speculation and speculate to some extent reasonably about intelligent life on other planets.
I haven't studied on this much so I'm probably getting things wrong but I thought that our existence (from ones that believe this way) happened by chance. If it was by "chance" then how likely is this chance to happen again.
The fossil record shows that life arose within the first 1.5 billion years of earth's existence (we know it was thriving by that time because we have large fossilized colonies of microbes from that period called stromatolites). That means that it arose rather quickly and soon branched out into various forms. So the thinking among many scientists is that since life arose so quickly on earth, then perhaps any place where the conditions are right, life will tend to arise as a matter of course. If this is correct then we would expect to find life throughout the universe. This is why researchers are so interested in Mars since they now know that it had liquid water for quite some time after the formation of the solar system. If they can find evidence that life existed there at one time, it will help validate this theory.
FreedomFrog:
why would you feel it's not probable for spirits or ghosts?
Firstly there's a difference between "possible" and "probable". I think it's possible that there is organic life and other planets and I also think it's possible that some form of non-corporeal entities exist which could be described as ghosts. So both are possible (or at least I cannot prove they are impossible). The question is how probable are they?
Well, unfortunately there's no convincing evidence of the existence of either type of entity so we're going to have to give it some thought.
As people have pointed out, we evolved on this planet and quite quickly too, so it seems to me that given the right conditions life of some sort will almost inevitably form. We can use something like the Drake equation to estimate how abundant life is likely to be, but unfortunately we only have one known example so estimates vary wildly. However even if only one star in a trillion (1,000,000,000,000) provides a suitable environment for life to begin, then there would still be millions of examples in the known universe, albeit too far away for us to ever know about. My personal opinion - and it's not really much more than a best guess - is that life will be found to be abundant in the universe or at least to have originated many times, most of it never evolving past the single-celled stage.
Now ghosts, spirits and demons are a different matter. Here, we don't even have the luxury of one example. Lots of anecdotes but no evidence. Initially this appears similar to the situation with extraterrestrial life, and while I would certainly put UFO and ghost encounters in the same category, it seems much less plausible to me that spirit creatures have left no evidence of their existence. Aliens, after all ,almost certainly live very far away and may not have the intelligence, technology or inclination to communicate with us. Ghosts, on the other hand, are generally alleged to share this planet with us and to be actively trying to communicate with us. The fact that there is no record of them being successful, in itself weighs against the likelihood of such entities existing.
But perhaps there's some reason for their apparent absence other than non-existence. I gave several reasons for the apparent absence of aliens, and it would be churlish of me not to allow that there may be similar reasons for the non-appearance of ghosts, even if I can't think of any.
For life on other planets, I can imagine how they got there. If they exist, then most likely they evolved the same as we did. The process is well-known and understood and it seems virtually certain that any form of self-replicating entity that happened to begin existing would immediately be subject to the same Darwinian forces of natural selection that have shaped life on earth. For spirit creatures, I can't do that. They are generally considered not to reproduce so there is no path for evolution to take. Further, they are not even made from anything known to exist in our universe. How can they interact with normal matter if they are made of something else?
Certainly, the common view of ghosts as the conscious personalities of dead people is inherently absurd. Everything we know about consciousness indicates it is a function of the neural connections in the brain, and that without a brain there can be no consciousness. The idea that, essentially, there is a second identical person who lives undetectably alongside the flesh-and-blood person throughout their life, only separating at death and maintaining the personality of the deceased (and often their clothes in spirit form) is the product of primitive superstitious minds who knew a lot less about the universe than we did.
That's essentially it, then. I think aliens may exist because there's probably nothing unique about the process that led us to exist and the universe is a very big place. And I think ghosts almost certainly don't exist because there's no evidence and no known mechanism to explain their existence.
I think I would ask myself the questions this way:
-What reasons do I have for believing angels or demons exist?
-What reasons do I have for believing 'aliens` exist?
Having experience with physical life on planet earth, and knowing how many stars and planets there are out there (not the exact number, but that there are a lot, to say the least), it wouldn't be illogical for me to believe 'aliens' might exist, if life has a tendency to arise under the right conditions in this universe. I don't think I'm as optimistic about that as many others though; I think life here could very well be a one-off event, especially the kind of life we see here. On the other hand, we may live in a universe where everything is just right for life to start and thrive (under the right conditions), and if so, even intelligent life may be abundant out there. The very recent discovery that 'space dust' forms helices under weightless, vacuum conditions may point to that (well, maybe not but we'll see - it's interesting at least).
As for a universe "built for life", I'd like to borrow an illustration, or parable if you will, from Douglas Adams (paraphrase) : Let's say you gave life to a puddle of water on a dirt road somewhere. The water comes to life, looks around itself and says: " Wow - it's amazing how everything around me is created to fit me perfectly! Had this hole I'm in been just a little pebble stone different, I wouldn't have fit in it! "
In other words; the environment is not adapted to suit us, we are adapted to suit our environment. Everything seems to be made exactly as it has to be for life to exist, but one could instead say that if things had been different to such a degree that life couldn't exist, we wouldn't have been here to talk about it. It's a full reversal of the thought pattern of someone who believes everything is created. Another thing is that it isn't necessarily so that the environment has to be as it is on earth for life to start. It would perhaps not be life as we know it, but could still be life.
I do not categorically deny that angels or demons may exist though - just as I don't categorically deny that dragons may exist. I just don't have any experience with dragons other than what others have once described, but if evidence of their existence would surface, I would believe. Well - I would know, which I guess may be different. On the other hand, I'm sure those who claim to have had real experiences with angels or demons 'know' they exist too - they don't believe they've had an experience, they know they've had an experience.
I do not categorically deny that 'aliens' may exist. My own experience with life (knowing that it exists, for one) tells me it is possible. Inhabiting this globe in this solar system and galaxy, we would be 'aliens' to any other potential life forms out there. If we'll ever see any of them, is another story. They would have to invent some pretty impressive technology first I think, like machinery with the ability to manipulate spacetime. The distances are just too vast. Then again - this is with our current knowledge of things.
People believe everything. And no one really knows whats going on in this dimension. Listen to late night radio, Coast to Coast with George Noory. You will find people believe in ET's and Ghost and theirs people that think the ET's are the demons and angles of the bible.
People believe everything. And they all have their evidences.
People believe everything. And they all have their evidences.
Yes, I agree, that's what I've been seeing. It doesn't matter "what" they believe, it seems that when they believe in something they can "prove" it. I just think it's interesting.
