by jeanne40love 8 Replies latest watchtower scandals
How does the bible view suicide?
A few acquaintances of mine in the "truth" committed suicide and when the memorial talks were given, they were handled very differently. At one hall the brother (MS) who took his life....his life was celebrated....There was comfort for everyone. at the other hall, the sister really very little comfort was given the family and friends.
Sorry this is not posted in the right location...I'm new at this.
probably better stated would be the watchtower society's view, since mixing it with the bible might be confusing.
one script i remember is "wages sin pays is death", so at death, you've paid for your sin, at least that's how it was explained to me when i was "in", that script was never brought up in the case of the suicides that i was emotionally involved with...in the 90's they were very harsh in a couple of different congregations i attended, then slowly started to lighten up.
the old view was, 'they lost jehovah's holy spirit' (said directly to me, a publisher, on two different situations, so who knows what was going on behind the scenes), so it was more investigative tactics as to the why and lots of speculation.
newer suicides i've seen treated w/ more kindness (if you wanna call it that, i could tell some brothers were just itching to get the witch-hunt out), but since i've left the society has beefed up its legal tactics (check out "ELDERS DOCS" in the private discussion forum for pdf scans of that), so they mostly are covering their asses in these cases.
of course, no one would ever admit or apologize to anyone for their old ways of thinking and how much harm was brought on entire families who were not only grieving and coming to grips with the tragedy, but were being investigated as to why 'jehovah's holy spirit had left the family', yes, exact words.
the reason for no apologies will be easily seen in the elder's documents, because they're more fearful of worldly litigation and getting sued than being christian...i doubt jesus would've told his apostles not to ever bring up the subject again b/c they might get sued in the sanhedrin (forgot how to spell that, it's been a long time)...he would've been on them to make ammends and comfort the family above and beyond in their time of grief.
suicides sometimes have a way of triggering other suicides in the family, i've witnessed this first hand in mine as well as others....so it should be very important to show as much love and understanding to the families and friends grieving as possible.
my reasons for leaving the organization are directly related to how we were treated as a family b/c of suicide and i continued to stay 'in', and the 'new light' came w/o apology of the way we were treated (from life long family 'friends' who were also elders), and it all hit me like a flash, the elders, the governing body, the society will chose to seriously harm a few people in order to make sure the possibility of them getting sued or losing face doesn't happen.
for way more information on that check out 'crisis of conscious' by raymond franz which confirmed every intuition i had on such a grander scale than my experiences.
Suicide is most often the result of (mental) illness. When people die as a result of illness, there is little condemnation among people, with the strange exception of suicide...
A Norwegian retired bishop (Lutheran), Sigurd Oseberg, blogged about suicide half a year ago. In his own followup (http://www.dagbladet.no/weblogg/blog.php/psigurdo/post/17683) he writes (my translation):
------------- quote -------------
Thanks to those of you who have commented on my two blog posts on suicide.
One of you writes: "One cannot be blamed for feeling that life is pointless and not worth living." I agree. It is a fact that some people feel that their life has lost its meaning, without their being responsible for this. The future appears as a burden too heavy to bear. Some feel that life is so meaningless that they even think it would be a relief for people around them if they die.
When humans feel like this, they don't need anyone to wag their finger at them. They need fellow human beings who do all they can to give meaning to their life, without expecting anyting in return.
One of you writes: "The church, I reckon, has played a major role in the condemnation of suicide." Early in the history of the church, suicide was considered a serious sin. God gave us life, therefore only Gud can reclaim it. Thomas of Aquino said that suicide is the greatest of all sins because the one who kills himself murders both body and soul. Augustine understood suicide as a sin against the fifth commandment "you shall not kill". But neither in the Old nor in the New Testament do we find statements that explicitly disapprove of suicide. There are reports about suicide in the Bible (1 Sam 31:4, 2 Sam 17:23, 1 Kings 16:18) but nothing condemning is said about the act. And when the New Testament tells about the suicide of Judas (Mt 27:5), this act is not characterised as Judas' sin. The sin was betraying Jesus for thirty silver coins.
But the church early interpreted the fifth commandment "you shall not kill" also as a ban on suicide. Martin Luther interprets this commandment as being about our relationship to our neighbour [fellow human], and he doesn't mention suicide. This does not imply that he didn't condemn suicide as the church generally did. And the concequence for those who killed themselves was that they couldn't demand that the curch be engaged in the funeral, and they were not buried in concecrated earth.
Today the church thinks differently, even though it does not consider suicide to be ethically neutral. The dominant focus of the church is that humans should have a better future. The church is occupied with prevention of suicide, both through the ordinary congregational service and the service of clergymen and deacons, but also in particular preventive undertakings.
In this respect it is focused not only on the potential "suicidal candidate", but also on what can be done in order for the person's environment to become so supportive that the person finds it meaningful to live. It is difficult to convince depressed, suicidal humans abouth this. The Russian author Vladimir Majakovsky (1893-1930), who committed suicide, wrote: "In this life it is not difficult to die, it is more difficult to live."
The curch's task is primarily to give humans hope, not only after death but also in life.
------------- end of quote-------------
Those were the words of the bishop. Perhaps some of them answer (parts of) your question.
Thanks for the information.
Jeanne
Suicide is most often the result of (mental) illness.
I respectfully disagree with this statement.
Most people who have commited suicide are normal people who were just overwhelmed with their pain,
They were filled with hopelessness and despair so great they saw no way out.
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/spagebw.htm
“Suicide is not chosen; it happens
when pain exceeds
resources for coping with pain.”
That’s all it’s about. You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn’t even mean that you really want to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Of course you would cheer yourself up, if you could.
I have had two close deaths in my family to suicide,
my step-father, whom I loved as a father and my half brother, who just recently committed suicide last year.
An elder did my brothers service at the funeral home and I did not find the service judgemental in anyway, also he ws careful to emphasize people that were close to my brother to not feel guilty for anything they did and did not do.
My step-father committed suicide after taking prozac and xanax for a period of time.
Forty percent of child of parents that commit suicide, do so themselves, no matter how wonderful their life is.
purps
Eclipse,
You say that you "respectfully disagree" with my statement. A reason for the disagreement may be that my native language is not English, and that it is a little difficult to find the right words. So let me state that I fully agree with the way you put it. :)
And also, please do not misunderstand what I meant when I wrote "(mental) illness". I thought of "illness" in the broad sense. I mean, when the pain or disorder -- whether the pain/disorder is physical or mental -- deprives someone of the resources needed to live, then it should not be a surprise (and absolutely not to be condemned) if life actually stops. "Illness" is probably a too specific word.
I totally agree with everything you wrote. And it is important to empasize that "most people who have commited suicide are normal people", and that "you are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal". What I meant to do, was to compare the causes of suicide to the causes of non-suicidal death, but you expressed it better when you wrote quite simply: "Willpower has nothing to do with it."
respectfully agreeing,
dust
I know a witness who suffers from depression and at one time attempted suicide. Two elders met with her and told her that if she ever did it again a JC would be convined. How comforting is that????
changeling
A JC? Now, that would be like... Well... "So, you suffer from something potentially lethal? We don't like that. If you don't stop suffering from it, we'll have to disfellowship you, so you'll understand how much we love you."
