We can "toast" now?

by Pathofthorns 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    There was an awake article, I believe last year that basically gave the green light to go ahead with ahead with things that once were pagan, but have since lost their pagan connotations. Of course, this was left up to your conscience, and the usual matter of not stumbling your brothers was brought up.

    Over on Witnet, one member mentions an inquiry to the Society regarding "toasting" at weddings etc, and they basically left this to the individuals to decide.

    Now, i've never seen anything wrong with stuff like this myself, and this whole "pagan" thing has never made sense to alot of people. I mean, doesn't everything really have some "pagan" origin? And who cares? Where does the bible say we can't do something, just because pagans did it?

    And throw into the mix that some pagan things are acceptable (ie the classic wedding ring example) and others are not, or like "toasting", were not acceptable. Then you have the stupid "what's the difference between anniversaries and birthday scam. Talk about confusion and not making any sense at all.

    Well, i think they've started to realize just how rediculous all this stuff is, and how lots of members don't see what's the big deal with all this "pagan" stuff. Once again, the ground work is laid to abandon so many things that made us "different".

    Slowly the religion is changing to appear "normal", and probably by abandoning these little rediculous things that we've become so known for blowing out of proportion is one of the most major ways to make the religion more appealing to the masses both inside and out.

    Its quite sad actually when every little detail of your life was dictated. Even that someone had to write into the Society to see if it was ok to tinkle your glass, that grown men would meet together and waste time thinking about this, then tell you, "its ok now to tinkle your glass if you'd like".

    *** w68 1/1 31-2 Questions from Readers ***
    At wedding receptions frequently a toast is similarly offered to the health and happiness of the newlyweds. Understandably, some have questioned whether it would be Scripturally proper for Christians to share in such toasts.

    Certainly there is nothing wrong with a Christian’s wishing a friend happiness and good health. Nor would it be improper to do so as a group. The spiritually older men in the first century concluded a letter to the Christian congregations with an expression meaning, essentially, “Good health to you!”—Acts 15:29.

    But is that all there is to “toasting”? Why do the toasters raise their glasses, or lift their mugs and clink them together? Is it in imitation of some custom? Note what The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th Ed., Volume 13, page 121, says:

    “The custom of drinking ‘health’ to the living is most probably derived from the ancient religious rite of drinking to the gods and the dead. The Greeks and Romans at meals poured out libations to their gods, and at ceremonial banquets drank to them and to the dead.” Then, after showing how such pagan customs survived among Scandinavian and Teutonic peoples, this reference work adds: “Intimately associated with these quasi-sacrificial drinking customs must have been the drinking to the health of living men.”
    When most people join in a “toast” they probably do not imagine that they might be copying the custom of lifting up a libation or liquid sacrifice to pagan gods, yet that could be so. Without question, a faithful Christian would not share in an actual pagan sacrifice, realizing that “you cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons.” (1 Cor. 10:21) A mature Christian would also avoid even imitating false religious rituals. This spiritually mature course would please Jehovah. Remember, God specifically warned the Israelites against copying religious practices of the pagan nations round about them.—Lev. 19:27; 21:5.

    *** w52 5/15 319 Questions from Readers ***
    Jehovah God and Christ Jesus are not honored by having pagan customs of toasting switched to them, or to humans. God’s Word the Bible instructs us in the way to honor him, and we do not add to his Word on this point, and especially not when the addition comes from pagan customs. In shunning this custom of toasting, along with many other objectionable customs, we may appear narrow-minded to worldlings. So we are. But never forget for a moment that our Christian narrowness is our salvation, just as the world’s broadness is its destruction.—Matt. 7:13, 14.

    Talk about a 180 [url] http://discussion.witnesses.net/Forum67/private-8QWKRq0/HTML/000156.html[/url]

    Path (disgusted)

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    The thing I find very interesting is that many JW's get VERY upset when this issue is brought up.

    I tried posting a question about this very subject on the JW board at MSN communities. First I was called a liar because I stated that wedding rings have a pagan origin. Then when I cut-and-pasted info, not only on the pagan origins of wedding rings, but also on other wedding traditions (such as the wedding bouquet being based on a spiritistic practice of using strong-smelling herbs and flowers to frighten away the evit spirits), the "mature" JW's jumped all over me.

    They were pulling out specious arguments about conscience on these matters, while upholding the ban against birthdays and holidays by stating that these were "celebrations" and, therefore, somehow different. Then they started the personal attacks and trying to shift the focus somewhere else.

    Not one of my points or questions was ever addressed. They just laid down a major smoke screen.

    The thing that still amazes me is that at one time I fully accepted the ridiculous arguments they brought up, and, in fact, used them myself. Group think at it's finest.

  • TR
    TR

    It just goes to show that if you want to think for yourself and speak about it, you can't be a JW. JW's have to wait until the WTS says it's OK, or that it's a conscience matter. God forbid we "run ahead" of the org. by "toasting".

    Tom

  • waiting
    waiting

    Well.......

    Can jw's say "God bless you" when someone sneezes now?

    Can jw's say "thank you" to someone when they say "God bless you" when they themselves sneeze?

    Can jw's bow their head when someone else prays, like at a company luncheon?

    Can jw's go to the last-minute Christmas sales for all the cheap toys and tell somebody about all the good deals they got at the Christmas sales? Particularily on Christmas Eve, when everybody else is at home getting ready for that pagan holiday.

    These are the questions that curious minds want to know......

    waiting

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I think Waiting you will find that many of these issues have finally become "conscience " matters, while at the same time you will get the tired line to "keep in mind the consciences of others".

    What it comes down to is that still many decisions continue to be made under the watchful "public" eye of the nosey local congregation, and if you are holding any "priveleges", you will still be deciding between what you "can" do, and what you "know" you "should" do.

    Path

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Path,

    Ah, the old "conscience" ploy.

    Well, my conscience allows me to have turkey on That Thursday. Well, perhaps your conscience isn't spiritually trained, now is it?

    Well, I've read what the Society has printed on allowing my kids to go to college. My conscience is clear. Well, perhaps you missed what the CO said at the last Special Day assembly? If you don't go to all the meetings that the Slave provides, you can't have an up-to-date learning on conscience matters, now can you?

    Well, the Question From Readers said it was up to our individual consciences whether we voted or not. Well, any spiritual brother's conscience would not allow him to vote, whatever was implied. We have many years of writings, and assemblies to back up this teaching. Would you like to step in the back room with us to discuss your conscience?

    Well, my husband was dying, I made a conscience decision to allow one of the components not listed in the 2-page Blood Article to be given to him. He's alive today because of it. Well, your conscience made an un-informed decision. Obviously, if the Slave did not specify that particular component - it shouldn't have been inserted into your husband's veins. The point of your husband being alive or dead is moot; by your actions, you have disassociated yourself. You are part of the Evil Slave Class now.

    Well, I see now, I should have let my husband die. I'm sorry. I've amended my conscience to be in line with the Society's teachings. Well, fine, sister. We can see that you're repentent. Just don't do it again.

    And Good Health to You! Hopefully till the next New Light anyway.

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 28 November 2000 13:29:32

    Edited by - waiting on 28 November 2000 13:31:8

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Waiting, I don't think I've ever seen "Christian conscience" summed up quite so well before.

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Waiting: Very well done.
    I once served with an elder who would not have let you off as easily with that last item. He would have probably requested some 'works befitting repentance' like maybe shooting your husband just so he would know that you were serious!

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

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