Honez: re baptism thread

by Guest with Questions 8 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions

    I was going to respond on that thread but felt it was better to start a new one. I am not picking on you but a number of things you, and other witnesses, have said concerns me. I'm sure there are a number of mistakes in this thread but have no desire to read over and edit. I still have a pumpkin pie to make for tomorrow.

    there is nothing like the feeling what you get from doing the right thing by god.

    so much scepticism i am currently not practicing but i can admit i am not in a good spiritual standing at the moment but whati can testify to is that nothing will give you more joy and happiness than serving god.

    I agree that if one lives their life as God wants and you conquer each weakness (with the help of the HS) it’s a wonderful feeling. For many the sceptism is not with God, but with the org. They are two different things regardless of what the GB says. To deny the org isn’t necessarily to deny God. I think many here have been so hurt by this org that they equate the org with God’s character which is the furthest from the truth.

    to put it simple elders and parents are just the middlemen, at the end of the day its god u have to reach out to, rather than focus on the imperfections of men that we all are regretably endowed with.

    As MrsJones has stated, Jesus is the Mediator or "middleman" between God and man, no one else. An elder, a pastor, a parent is there to guide but they aren’t mediators or middlemen.

    The problem I have with this statement -imperfections of men - is that when a "worldly person" makes a mistake or commits a sin they are wicked. When a witness makes a mistake or commits a sin he has imperfections. I have heard this from my own mother; that somehow witnesses are morally above wordly people. I’ve seen it on this board - witnesses claiming that they are morally superior.

    The reason parents cry in some cases and put pressure upon their children is because they are scared for them because the world is a scary place to which their is no hope.

    Yes, the world can be a scary place. You can prepare a child but you don’t have to scare them to death, saying that everything outside of the org is an evil place and that you can only find safety within the org. As the latest Pedophile Settlement attests, there isn’t anymore safety within the confines of the org. Don’t think that the witnesses are the only ones with a hope. Christians also have a hope of eternal life but as a Christian I believe there is one hope for all.

    There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all. Ephesians 4:5-6

    I did not go and join the "cult" as you call it because jehovahs witnesses forced me or blinded me, i was baptized out of love for god because i was inspired by his word!

    I was baptized a few years ago. According to GB would my baptizm be invalid because I wasn’t baptized as a witness?

    Baptism is an outward sign of your dedication to God. You personally make a commitment, then as an outward sign to other people in the congregation you get baptized. Just like a wedding ring is an outward sign that you are married. The wedding ring itself doesn’t make you married, just as a baptism itself doesn’t make you a follower of Christ. Baptism in itself doesn’t save you. In the early church people were immediately baptized when they believed. They didn’t have to go through a lengthy program, as with this org, to become baptized. When you are baptized it is an outward showing that you belong to Christ, not to an org. I believe if one isn't baptized but have made that commitment you still belong to Christ.

    and jehoavahs witnesses are the only religion that follow the BIBLE and all its entirety the best of human understanding, not just bits as other religions do.

    As jgnat has stated, how many religions have you studied without the blinders of the org? To state that only the witnesses follow the bible is totally wrong and sadly I think I know where you get your information from. I have been to a number of churches and from what I see they all read the bible, they all have bible studies at the church or at peoples homes. Many take their faith very seriously. I don’t believe that any church or org has a monopoly on Truth. Only Jesus does. All fall short, all make mistakes. Some make more mistakes than others.

    I believe that the Jehovah Witness Org does not follow the bible, they follow the NWT, their own unique version of the bible. Compare different versions, KJV, NIV, etc with the NWT and soon you will find discrepencies. If the Jehovah Witness Org is the ONLY true church why is it (as minimus stated in one of his threads) that the Catholic Church was used to put the bible together. Why, if the JW have been around since Abel, would God not use them to put the Bible together?

    you see people can say they said this or you said that but no one is perfect and the true instructor is the bible, i do not let Men govern my thoughts the bible is my guide.

    choose to believe witnesses or not but the real truth lies within in the bible.

    Many claim that the bible is their guide but who’s interpretation of the bible do you accept?

    The best thing is not to pick at peoples imperfection but to look to the cause and message behind it.

    I personally have found that the people to be the most critical have been the witnesses themselves. They claim that they are persecuted. They are the only ones that have the truth, they are the only ones who read the bible, they are the only ones who interpret the bible accurately, are the only ones preaching, they are the only ones that lead moral lives, they are they only ones who have love among themselves. Yet what I personally see is people from all walks of life, from different religions who try to live moral lives, who read and study their bibles, who try to love one another, who speak of their faith to others, yet they falter because they’re broken. We’re all broken to some degree (some more than others) But to claim that one has Truth over another is so untrue, so wrong.

    im not attending meetings at the moment or doing much ito that degree but the thing is that i know whats best for me ive had an insight to many religions and none fit as well as jehovahs witnesses and their relativity to god, they are the closest to god that anyone could endevour to become.

    so yes indeed they are the middlemen because they are there to help and support you and offer you what you need and provide that connection to god via the bible,

    but yes there is no one but you jesus and god when you approach god in prayer and by no one else will you have life but these, but this doesnt mean you disrespect the system and arrangements put in place by our heavenly father

    Again, you state that you have an insight to many religions and none fit as well as jehovahs witnesses. Where did you get that information? I I I I remember my parents telling me that they had studied other religions yet it was through the eyes of a witness. To find out about another religion you need to get information outside of your org.

    Where in the bible does it say that a system organization was put in place by God. If that is so why couldn’t it be that the Catholic Church isn’t this system even with it’s imperfections? Both the Catholic Church and the Watchtower have imperfections, both claim they are the sole Truth. Just because the org, or the Catholic Church says it is the sole truth doesn’t make it so. Jesus is the Truth.

    For people who were told they will die or smited, this indeed is put bluntly and im sure anyones point of view is horrible, when you were told this did you write to the governing body of jehovahs witnesses? did you write to the watchtower? and ask them because they are the true source,while elders are appointed by a body they are also imperfect and make errors, when you are told horrible things of death by parents that is not the organizations fault the fault lies with the parents handling of the facts this only shows that they lack tactfulness,

    I’ve never been a witness but my understanding is that elders speak for the Governing Body. They have outlines and they can’t sway from that. Are you saying that the Governing Body is above making mistakes and if a mistake is made it’s the elder that is at fault? What is the official word from the GB regarding death? My understanding is that the literature states that those who are not witnesses in good standing will be destroyed? Is this incorrect?

    referring to this as a gunman and a bankteller is completley inappropriate you are not threatened to be killed by anyone you are warned that your course of action could lead you to become harmed just as a weather warning is sent out to people who are continuing to ignore it even though are storm is coming.sad reality is people scorn it and people say nah wont happen wont happen we will be okay but the truth is the storm comes and takes there lives, how much would their viewpoint have changed on the situation if they had a chance to change their path im sure they would. but youve only got one chance

    A lot of people do scorn end times. Can you blame them? How many times has this org cried wolf. Jesus said, for good reason, that no one would know the time of the end because many people, if they knew, would continue to live their lives like no tomorrow. People need not be concerned about the end times. All of us has an end time when we die. That is what we need to be concerned about.

    When there is a storm coming there many places where a person could seek shelter. The problem with the above statement is that the org says that they are they only place where you can find safety.

    I think God gives us so many chances. Only he knows our hearts. I think many will be shocked by who will be saved. Who was Jesus angry with, the Pharisees, the tax collector, the prostitute, his disciples? It was always the pompous ***** who thought they knew it all, not the down trodden and broken. Look at the Prodigal Son. Everyone sins, everyone makes mistakes, but when we confess our sins, when we belong to Him, we are forgiven, over and over again.

    "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:6-7

    There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Romans 3:10-12

  • Honez
    Honez

    The literature says that those directly going against god will be destroyed eg. hitler but it also says in our literature that it is not for us to say god is the reader of hearts and knows everyones heart condition.

    So much to reply to most of what you have said is simply my mistake its hard for me to get my point accross without it being misunderstood being that is hard to explain so much in so little words and hope that everyone gets the point.

    i believe in the bible but my translation is the new world translation edtion because if i have any doubts about a scripture i will compare it to the old english kings james bible from which ours was translated. and if you compare the two they have the same meanings just in modern day english.

    you may be baptised anywhere and if your heart is fit then god will not destroy you of coarse but what we do claim is that if you know what is right and god gives you the chance to change and you do not take gods warning then yes you will die .

    we do not boast our religion is better than another infact our ogrganization has said to do so is wrong and not to do it but because we believe so strongly in it. that it is the truth it seems to come across that way.. yes indeed i know that about the fact that many people do the things witnesses do morals etc... but can you name such a vast and united group of people who do this say an organization of over 6million who live that way? there are many individuals who do live this way and this makes me happy to see because their heart condition is good! witnesses are not here to say their better but they simply sought those out with the right heart condition just as the bible says to go preaching, the only other religion well a large religion that go door to door is the mormans but the difference is they missionary for 2 years then they are set for life, witnesses continue the message until their dying day.

    while i agree many may have been hurt by the organization because ive seen if my sister is disfellowshiped for homosexuality, friends have dis membered them selves because of fallouts with elders but the thing is that these people made a decision they knew was gonna bring them grief its their fleshly desires and imperfections that took them on that path..

    elders have free will. elders and overseers give sermons based on their own bible they form their own talks there are outlines but nope they are based around the bible and are simply and outline to help structure information their are special needs that the watchtower org and governing body discuss that they feel should be mentioned to elders and spread through the congregation they watch the world events and provide help for people through elders based on the current times e.g crime when crimes at a high rate they bring out articles that not only offer practical help but offer the bibles viewpoint on such things and they dont only show their understanding of it but they give you the scriptures to study it with in your own bible and they wlcome you to glean your own understanding based on your own bible....

    If you ever see a witness ask them to i dont know explain something and ask them if you can use your own bible they will be more than happy in fact they encourage it to show its not their book the bible they have translated its just been put simply so that we can understand it. who can understand hebrew or greek? who can understand old english to a correct degree? it has been translated to a language you can understand and it was done by a group of people in order that not just one persons interpretation would be portrayed. would i give you a magazine in say chinese if our indian?.... i highly doubt it, all they have done is tryed to help people understand the bible better.

    In Fact Can i make it clear that please If ANYONE has issues or questions with the WT organization please write to them please ask dont let these misunderstandings or things like that make you hate an organization when you havent heard it from its source directly pesonaly to you

    Get in contact with the main office the governing body write to them if you have and questions?.......

  • carla
    carla

    Get in contact with the main office the governing body write to them if you have and questions?.......--- Obviously something you yourself have never done. Know what happens when you write the society? If you are not a member you will get no answer, I know, I sent a letter a number of years ago and still waiting. If you are a member they will forward your questions to the elders and you may promptly be df'd for apostasy for even questioning the borg.

    Do your own experiment, write them about 586/607 and see what happens. Or try calling about the pedophile issue, ever wonder why YOU must give your name and what hell you go to but they do not give their names? See how far you get questioning them about the lawsuits.

  • Siamsa
    Siamsa

    Honez,

    Why would i want to write to the Pope or one of his bishops regarding the rules of the Catholic Church when they are freely available to all persons regardless of their religion. The rules and doctrines can be purchased at any number of locations. The information and answers that you believe is available at branch headquarters should be available to you. If not, why not? Can you not handle solid food on your own ? Seek and you WILL find.

    What is so different with your religion ? You have directed that any questions should be directed to the 'bishops' or Pope who rule your church in a similar way to other religions through branch headquarters. The Popes in the case of your religion started with Charles Taze Russell and then his successors right down to the present day. The 'Arch Bishops' are the Governing Body and the 'Bishops' are the overseers who dispense their version of 'light' to the priests/elders for the benefit of eager 'mushrooms'. The light you are looking at may blind you to the intentions of the person who is shining it in your eyes. Do not get caught like a rabbit in the headlights of a car.

    That may be the first and last light that that rabbit will see !

    Wishing you all that you would wish for others.

    Siamsa.

  • Honez
    Honez

    And why do you think they dont discuss such issues with just anyone? because of the media etc.....

    have you ever read the awake or watchtower ? questions from our readers? sometimes they post questionable comments from people you can clearly see are not members of the organization but they still post it no matter how questionable they answer the question.

    And those issues would be hard to discuss because of media issues.. why would i need to write to them ive never had issues with them?

    I will write to them and if it fails ill write to the new zealand headquarters and if that fails ill write to an overseer.

    The thing is that elders anyone theyve never had trouble discussing anything anything ive needed answered anything my parents have needed answered they answered.

    If you were truly happy? after leaving the organization you's wouldnt be on here bitchin about them.

    all i see is negative people, you think you are free? lol

    Siamsa i dont wanna hear from you, you talk a lot of shit lol, You people are pretty whacked...

    Thinking you all know best? think you all know best for yourselfs? you people are killing the world people who think they should be free to do with whatever you want...

  • carla
    carla

    oh, I'm feeling the love from this jw now!

    fyi- I've never been a jw. By the way the questions from readers is made up by the writing dept..

    True freedom is in Christ and when you are free you don't go out and 'do anything'. Get out and see the world, leave your cloistered little bubble of jw's and see what is really out there not just their fear and guilt they indoctrinate you with 5 meetings a week.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Honez, you said if anyone has questions about the Society, they should write them.

    Okay, this is what happened when one of our board members did exactly that:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/143498/1.ashx

    He got stonewalled! It seems they only want to answer "friendly" re-affirming letters.

  • Siamsa
    Siamsa

    Honez,

    As you have appointed yourself as a spokesperson for the Watchtower Bible and Tract (New Zealand) Society I feel the need to ask you to explain the following -

    1. Why do you apologise for the inability of the Organisation "to discuss issues with just anyone"? The "media" that you refer to includes the Organisation that you are a member of and its ability to produce printed books and materials is well documented. The press office and legal department are very professional and active when the need arises. The "anyone" that you refer to would presumably include members of the world and other religions who are potential Jehovahs Witnesses ? Why exclude them from the message that your religion spends millions of dollars in promoting and defending ?

    2. Yes I have read the Watch Tower and Awake magazines. I have also read the Readers Digest and telephone directories when the need arose. I never felt the need to write to any of these publications with "questionable comments" (whatever that means) for publication nor have I read any "questionable comments" in either the Watch Tower or Awake.

    3. I for one am not bitching about any one or anything and least of all, Jehovahs Witnesses. There are many fine human beings who are active members of the Jehovahs Witnesses. I treat those members with respect and consideration every time I have the pleasure of their company. There are many more who I would not lend the smell of one of my farts to.

    4. When you appeared here uninvited (same as every one else) you gave the impression that you were a well mannered (poor speller for your age), genuine Christian who had the ability to engage in reasoned debate without resorting to anger when faced with questions that you are unable to answer. I do not know if this results from a lack of knowledge, an inability to consider inconvenient facts or to look at anyones point of view other than your own. Either way there is no need to lose your temper and stamp your little feet.

    I am sattisfied from your un christian outburst and personal comments directed towards me that you are not a follower of Christ. I cannot imagine that Jesus or any of the apostles would have resorted to the base language and anger that you have displayed in your posts regardless of the circumstance.

    There is no point telling me that every one here is "pretty whacked" when you entered the asylum as a voluntary patient !

    Quit sitting in the middle of the road staring at the headlights of every Watch Tower vehicle that carries "new light". Stand at the side of the road where it is safe and have a real good look at who the driver is.

    Wishing you all that you would wish for others and multiply them by four Honez. I hope that all your wishes for others are truly christian wishes other wise you have a lot of bad stuff to look forward to !

    Siamsa.

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions

    Honez: I’m not sure if you will be back to read this, or any other post. I do want to thank you for reading and responding. I am having a bit of a difficulty reading your posts. Periods would help a lot. If I misunderstood your posts I hope you will clear it up for me.

    First I want to say that at times I was taken aback by some of your comments. I have to remind myself that you are very young and, it seems, have led a very sheltered life where you believe everything this org tells you. It seems that you believe everything that this org tells you about other religions, that they are false, wicked, yet when others criticize the org (and I think for good reason) it’s persecution, hatred, wickedness, tool of the devil. Do you not wonder why so many here are so negative towards the org? Could they have been deeply hurt or abused? Could they have been abandoned by the congregations, by their families, and their friends - some for only questioning or rejecting the GB, but not God? I think all religions should be questioned and scrutinized. If there are any dirty secrets they should be revealed and if there aren't any earth shattering wrongs then there is nothing to fear.

    You didn’t answer some of the questions I had. Maybe I wasn’t direct enough.

    One of the ones I was interested in was why God would use the Catholic Church to put the bible together if the Jehovah Witnesses were the only truth? JW’s claim that the Catholic Church corrupted the bible, the very bible they put together. Wouldn’t it have made more sense if God had used the JW’s put the bible together so that we now wouldn’t be dealing with a corrupt bible, if that was the case. ( personally I don’t believe that)

    From talking to a few witnesses they claim that JW’s have been around since Abel. Even your NWT states this. (in the Bible Topics for Discussion section on page 1652 under Jehovah’s Witnesses. Origin of Jehovah Witnesses - line of faithful witnesses began with Abel)

    You stated that you cross referenced the NWT with other bibles and found no difference. My mother told me the same thing. She couldn’t see it and you don’t seem to see it either. There are sites on the Internet that will show you the differences. Use your own bibles to make sure they are correct. If you can’t find any I will give you examples.

    You state that you use the NWT. Do you know the history of this translation? Do you realize that the GB took scholars out of context to suit their own peculiar doctrine. Dr Mantley wrote the Watchtower requesting the GB to retract his corrupted quotation. I can supply you with a whole list of scholars taken out of context to make it seem that they supported the JW doctrine.

    Do you know who translated the NWT? I can supply you with that information.

    You seem to contradict yourself. You say that God is the reader of hearts and yet you judge people that you don’t know in the same sentence.

    You still claim that the Jehovah Witnesses are morally superior; that if everyone on the face of this earth became a witness than all would be well with the world. I’m not going to deny here that there aren’t caring, loving witnesses that want to please God. By the same token there are caring, loving Catholics, Mennonites, Lutherans, Baptists, etc, etc, that want to please God. For you to say that only witnesses are morally upright is totally false.

    Can you explain, if the JW’s are morally superior, why there a great problem with pedophiles within the org. Are they lies, are the false religions forcing them to commit heinous acts? Do you think that if everyone on earth was a JW, that the problem with pedophiles would be eradicated?

    Siamsa i dont wanna hear from you, you talk a lot of shit lol, You people are pretty whacked...

    I think you’re comments were very disrespectful towards Siamsa and towards all the people on this board. She was articulate and showed more Christian love towards you than you showed her with this comment. I would consider you rethink your comment that if all the earth was converted to the JW religion that all would be well with this earth. I think she deserves an apology.

    I do hope you stay. If you want the truth you may not find it here, but you might find out that the JW org isn’t the truth. The truth you can only find in Jesus, an uncorrupted bible and lots of prayer for guidance.

    I wish you well.

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