When Did Presbyterians Start To Call Pastors, Father?

freyd

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303881,00.html

Matt 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

aniron

So out of all the report about the devastation and people losing their homes.

All shocked you and could think about was a Presbyterian minister was called "Father".

Apparently the practice of calling an ordained minister “Father” was not limited to Catholics. In fact, this
is what most Christians called their ministers in the English-speaking world until the arrival of the Irish
to United States.

In non-English speaking countries, the term “Father” for a priest is not common because in many languages the
word is closer to either “papa” or “abba.” About the year 400 the Catholic Church limited the use of the word
“papa” to refer to the Bishop of Rome only (in English we pronounce it as “pope). The term “abba” is applied
to the male heads of religious communities (in English we call them “abbots”). And the term “Father” is
reserved in other languages only for priests that serve such communities.

Catholic priests were called “Mister” in the English-speaking world up until the 19th century when Irish
Catholics immigrated to the United States. They called their ministers “Father,” and this did not sit well with
some branches of Protestantism.

It is only after this occurrence in the early 19th century do we see any protest of calling ministers by the
title “Father” by some Protestants. Up until this point Christians generally viewed Jesus words of not calling
anyone “teacher…father” as hyperbole because there were many teachers and many fathers on the earth.
Anti-Catholic hatred however caused this to become a big issue, and many Protestant churches that used to call
their ministers “Father” dropped the usage, but as you have discovered not all of them.

Outside of the English speaking world priests are not called by the title “Father.” In France, for example,
they are called “Monsieur le Curé,” while in the country of my ancestors, namely Spain, they are called “Don.”

Brother Apostate

Yes, but even MORE importantly, when did the Dutch start To call Fathers "Faza"?????

Please respond ONLY in month/Day/Year format, as folllows: 00/00/0000

BA- Thanks.

freyd

In case no one here is aware, there have been concerted efforts in the last several years to unify the various factions of Babylon. The Presbyterians have been in the news on a number of occasions recently involving, among other things, ordination of women and socially undesirable types as I recall. I've attended a couple of their churches in the past but it's been quite a while, but never was the head pastor called father. Was wondering if this was part of re-unification.

Carl_Hernz

No, though from our point of view it might seem like it (and I would have thought so myself when I was still a Witness), but it is actually a holdover in cases like this. Attempts at unification among Churches has included mainly work to unify liturgically, and this has been succefully done with the adoption of the Revised Common Lectionary via the work of the CCT.

Use of the term "Father" as an address for pastors may sound like an adoption from Catholicism, but it is actually the other way around. For example, in the film "Signs" by director M. Night Shyamalan, Mel Gibson plays a Protestant minister who is addressed as "Father." As I mentioned above in my previous post this was common until the early 19th century when Catholic priests also began to be addressed the same way by the Irish who were settling into the United States. It may be part bias against the immigrants as well as anti-Catholic attitudes that prevailed at the time, that this became an issue and many Protestants stopped using the term and even began Scripturally defending their new stand via the text found in Matthew.

Jehovah's Witnesses have pained an acronystic picture of the use of the term "Father" by Catholics that many ex-Witnesses still accept, namely that this practice originates with Catholicism and is universal through the Roman Church. This is not the case, as it is limited basically to the United States and some other English-speaking territories. As I previously pointed out, since the 400s, the term "Father" has been reserved for the Catholic Bishop of Rome ("Papa" or "Pope" as we say it in English), and isn't a universal earmark of Catholicism. This has been hard for some to get their minds around because they have always been taught otherwise, but it is quite easy to research and even see as in the account that starts this thread, the motion picture I mentioned, and can even be traced in libraries and online historically.

Unification efforts (called "eccumenism" by Catholics and Protestants) does not include an effort by Catholics to have ministers change any of their titles as can also be seen by examining eccumenical documents released by the Catholic Church as well as others faiths, especially since Vatican II. Practically all of these are available online via the Holy See's website.

freyd

The Russian and Greek Orthodox along with Anglicans may have that practice, but the Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists never did. And of course it is universal in the cathaholic religion.

Carl_Hernz

I am not above being corrected, so I welcome this view and would love to see your data that you are basing your claim that it is a universal practice to call priests "Father" in the Roman Catholic Church. I could definitely use this in my work since I am a working on a project about Catholic apologetic history and it is quite different from what I've learned.

I am a professional writer specializes in religious history, cults, and ancient languages, and while I do not believe the comments I made were opinion or conjecture, I can definitely be wrong (I was wrong for 11 years when I was a Witness, and I certainly have learned my lesson about being close minded and not investigating facts).

Could you post the information and research you are basing your claim on? I would really appreciate it. I haven't found anything like that in print or on the Internet. Thanks.

Carl_Hernz

While you can find a lot of information on the Net to backup what I've written (Wikipedia, historical and Catholic sites), one article written by Dr. David Holmes, teacher of religion at the College of William and Mary in Virginia once wrote an article for The Christian Century in the mid 1980s. I have that article where he brings attention to many of these facts that I have cited in each of my responses, writing in part:

Such opposition, however, is ironic in the context of church history. For American Protestants regularly called their clergy "Father" 200 and 300 years ago, and some continued to do so a century ago… Although, for example, "Mister" (the designation of a gentleman and a college graduate) was the normal title for Puritan clergy in colonial New England, Congregationalists. Baptists, Methodists and German Reformed commonly addressed older ministers as "Father" well into the 19th century.

Most significantly, the decline of "Father" in Protestantism coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the United States in the 1840s. Before that time, Roman Catholic priests in America were usually addressed as "Mister," for most were secular (nonmonastic) clergy with roots in Europe or England, where Roman Catholic practice restricted "Father" to priests of monastic orders. Secular priests were called "Mister," "Monsieur," "Don" or other vernacular equivalents.

Irish Roman Catholics, however, addressed all priests -- whether secular or monastic -- as "Father." And by the end of the Victorian period, the Irish had influenced English-speaking Roman Catholicism to call every priest "Father."

This change clearly influenced Protestant usage. Catholic priests called "Mister" and protestant clergy called "Father" had lived side by side in America. Following the Irish immigrations, however, Protestants began to see the title as redolent of priestcraft and popery.

…Second, a literalist, increasingly polemic interpretation of Matthew 23:9 ("And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" [KJV]) supported the change in nomenclature. Like the Reformers, early American Protestants tended to believe that the Matthean passage condemned pharisaic vainglory rather than specific titles. That interpretation was natural, for a literal interpretation of the surrounding verses would also forbid Christians from using "Teacher" and "Mister."

Nevertheless, as more and more Irish Catholic priests moved into the United States, Protestants began to assert that "Father" was unbiblical. The literalist interpretation of Matthew 23:9 became a standard weapon in the arsenal of anti-Catholicism. "He didn’t like to be called Father," wrote a minister about a colleague in 19th-century Massachusetts.

"He wanted to be called Brother Jones. He often used to say: Call no man father upon the earth"’ (Richard Eddy. Universalism in Gloucester, Massachusetts [Gloucester, 1892], p. 98). As a result of this reaction, the 20th century brought generations of American Protestants who knew nothing of ministers addressed as "Father."

Again, this is not the only reference availble, but it is one of the best since a lot of it is in one spot (and can be verified by independent study). I really want to know about the evidence backing up your statement.

freyd

Very interesting. I found that article. http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916 Now maybe the pendulum swings the other way in misuse of religious titles.

When Did Presbyterians Start To Call Pastors, Father?

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