New light in 2001?

Pathofthorns

I just saw this over at Witnet. It was also on h20 about a week ago. What do you think? [url] http://discussion.witnesses.net/Forum67/private-8QWKRq0/HTML/000162.html[/url]

As far as the chronology goes, who knows what they could possibly be planning. Its fair to say they have to do something well before 2014 rolls around. They need to completely get away from chronology. What a bad trip that has been!

As for this constantly arguing about a stake over the cross, who cares? I never understood what was the big deal about the cross being "pagan". Weren't the Roman's pagan, and couldn't they put Jesus to death any way they wanted to? Isn't the stake sort of a phalic symbol anyway?

The important thing is that Christ died and why he died, not how. I can easily see them being less dogmatic on the stake/cross issue and just stating that we shouldn't put emphasis on how, but why he died and that we shouldn't venerate the object of his death.

I just think its sad we've wasted so much time on these minor issues and made them into major ones. To the newer ones these things will seem as no big deal. To those who have been around for a while, who argued long and hard at the doors about these things, I think they might find themselves scratching their heads.

I somehow don't think a pic of Christ on a cross is happening any time soon. That might be a bit too much for everybody.

Path

Frenchy

It will be interesting to see what develops concerning this over the next few months...

-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

waiting

Hey Path,

Thanks for the link - which works fine. Isn't it amazing what a man can accomplish when in touch with his feminine side?

As for this constantly arguing about a stake over the cross, who cares? I never understood what was the big deal about the cross being "pagan".

I believe it was brought out by some apostate somewhere, that one of the prime goals of the WTBTS was to prove to all, particularily "members of Christiandom" and to the R&F jw's, just how different the WTBTS was from pagan Christiandom and that the WTBTS was the only religious organization "holding fast to the Truth."

I've read some of the information on the cross/stake issue. A very good argument that the cross is more historically correct. Pagan? Sure. Like the Roman soldiers weren't pagan.

But it begs the question - why the trumped-up picture (supposed to be Jesus dying on a stake) in the Interlinear Translation of Greek Scriptures? Page 1156. (Found on page 647 in the following book)

"De Cruce Liber Secundus," by Justus Lipsus, 16th century, p. 661. On this page is a picture of a man dying on a cross - arms outstretched. Follows is an interpretation of the Latin:

ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF "CRUX SIMPLEX" by Justus Lipsus.

On page 647 of Lipsus' book, as depicted by the Governing Body, there is actually no mention of Jesus Christ at all; rather it is one of several woodcuts in this book illustrating how criminals were put to death on stakes and poles. The Governing Body would have you believe that Justus Lipsus is saying that this was how Jesus was 'impaled.' However, just 14 pages later, there is another woodcut of a man suspended on a cross. This time, Justus Lipsus DOES mention our Lord Jesus Christ! Here is a partial translation of page 661 of Lipsus' book:

"I do not know whether the words of Innocent to this matter should be referred to: 'In the Lord's cross there were four pieces of wood, the upright beam, the crossbar, a tree trunk (piece of wood) placed below, and the title (inscription) placed above.'

"Also they hand down (this account by) Iraneus: 'The construction itself of the cross has five ends, two on the vertical and two on the horizontal, and one in the middle where the person attached with nails rested.'

"They divide the cross into five ends ('points' Tertullian calls them), those four which are known (familiar) and extend out; and the fifth which they place in the middle of the cross, where the transverse beam cuts and crosses the fixed beam. With this consideration, there are five ends; and that post (cut, however) makes three each. As to what they say about being carried and resting - it is true. The body leans on the plank as if supported from the back. St. Augustine writes in this sense (with this meaning): 'the vertical beam of the cross rising from the ground to which the body was attached.' Has it the whole body? It is clear that just the feet were on the bottom: but he understands either 'attached' or 'supported', and I do not know whether he wrote 'supported.' However, I hear that in pictures and old sculptures a vestige of this plank is evident: I would not reject it rashly, certainly not from the cross of Christ; but from others I would do so more boldly. For what trace (hint) is there in the ancient writings?"

I have translated these passages as accurately as possible and to the best of my ability.

Marie Tseng - Teaching Assistant
University of So. calif. 10/3/76"

(italics mine)

This letter is published in "Thus Saith the Governing Body" by Randy Watters, p 138. Along with pictures and writings of the Interlinear Translation. A fair discussion, imo.

Why the pretense in the Interlinear Translation? To be different. Public Relations. "We have more Truth than they do. - We are God's Only Channel to Mankind."

Yeah, right.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 26 November 2000 21:39:56

Pathofthorns

Isn't it amazing what a man can accomplish when in touch with his feminine side?

What in the world are you talking about, Waiting??? It's the feminine side that gets me into all these problems in the first place.

Frenchy: I too am very interested in this. I find it really disturbing the rate at which previous beliefs are being dismantled, without any acknowlegement to the emphasis we used to put on these beliefs.

Path

Frenchy

If you put enough emphasis and thus place sufficient loyalty to the organziation, then it can pretty much do what it wants and no one will mind.

-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

mgm

http://www.caic.org.au/zcross.htm
Please check this link!
Greetings
MGM

Carmel

You guys got me all concerned. I been totally undressed looking in the mirrors trying to identify which side of me is the feminine and which isn't! Derned if I can tell the difference! Waiting, you gotta understand this and explain it to a poor back woodsman..

carmel

Seven

mgm, Here's your link: http://www.caic.org.au/zcross.htm
I turned it into a clickable link for you.

larc

More info on the cross, same author different book than the one cited above: De Cruce Libri by Lipius shows 16 methods of Roman killing , 13 are crosses and three are stakes. Our old books show one of the stake types to prove the teaching, not mentioning the 13 crosses.

Regarding 2014: They should have done something in 1979, when the religion was 100 years olld. That's a long time to wait with baited breath for the end of the world. By the way, there are no Bible scholars, except our own of course who believe that 607 B.C is the right date. That distruction happened about twenty years later. Perhaps the "new light" will be to move the date to 1934.

RedhorseWoman

Perhaps the "new light" will be to move the date to 1934.

Looks as if this has already happened. I pulled the following quote from another JW board. Seems the "time of the end" and therefore the "generation" is now linked to the FDS.

From the January 15 2000 Watchtower

The First study article offers "'Six Convincing Lines of Evidence' that we are living in the last days of this ungodly world".

This is word for word what is printed in paragraph 18 followed by the associated footnote at the bottom of the page.
***BEGIN QUOTE***
18. Sixth, the number of genuine anointed disciples of Christ is dwindling, though some will evidently still be on earth when the
great tribulation begins. Most of the remnant are quite elderly, and over the years the number of those who are truly anointed has been getting smaller. Yet, referring to the great tribulation, Jesus stated: "Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:21,22) Evidently, then, some of Christ's "chosen ones" will still be on earth when the great tribulation begins.*

*In the parable of the sheep and the goats, the Son of man arrives in his glory in the period of the great tribulation and sits in
judgement. He judges people on the basis of whether they gave support to Christ's anointed brothers. This standard for judgment would be meaningless if at the time of judgement, all of Christ's brothers had long since left the earthly scene. - Matthew 25:31-46
***END QUOTE***

New light in 2001?

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