New insight on Rev 5 & 7?

by tsar_robles 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  tsar_robles

  Well, I must state first that it was not me that caught the following but rather my wife. While considering the following chapters of Revelation we noticed the following:
  
  
  AV Re 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [...]
  
  6. And I beheld, and look, in the midst of the throne and the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb, as it had been slain [...
  ]
  9. And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us for God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
  In these verses above we first read how the resurrected son of God is described in both Jewish and Christian terms, that is, as the Lion of the tribe of Juda and then as the Lamb. Not only that, but when Jesus is described as the Lion of the tribe of Juda John is told about it, whereas he actually does visualize the Lamb standing. Finally, the 24 elders sang and declare that he redeemed them out of every nation, people, etc.
  
  
  Now, let's read Revelation 7:
  
  AV Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Re 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of [...] Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, look, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and [...]

  Once again, we see a similarity in the way John hears and describes things. At the beginning of this chapter 7 he hears that those to be sealed number 144,000 and come from all the tribes of Israel including Juda, etc. Thus, these servants of Christ are described in Jewish terms, very simply stated. Also note that John did not count their number or saw their origin but actually was told about it just as he was told about the Lion of the tribe of Juda.
  
  Immediately after these verses describing the sealed ones he uses the same expression or transition he used in chapter 5: "And I beheld, and look,".
  
  Just as the vision of him hearing about the Lion of the tribe of Juda and then seeing the Lamb was the same vision so the same must be said of the vision where he first hears about the number and origin of the sealed ones in Jewish terminology and then continues to say that now he beholds and looks at this same people but in non Jewish terms: as a great crowd that no man could number out of every nation, people, etc.
  
  Finally, note that this crowd is also described to come from the same origin as that sung by the elders and creatures; out of every nation, people, etc. that is.
  
  Thus, we see that in Chapter 5 John first hears about Jesus in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue the same vision where he can now behold Jesus in different light.
  
  Same thing happens in Chapter 7. John first hears about the sealed ones in Jewish terms, then uses a transition to continue that same vision where he can now behold the sealed ones in a different light.

  PS. I can understand how most of us feel about prophetic stuff, doctrine etc. But I must say that now that I am no longer capped by the evil slave I can grasp other people's reading comprehension without any bias; that is including my wife who is not or has ever been a jw.
• 

  Leolaia

  You might be interested in my thread on the subject, which explores these issues in close detail: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx

  Here is an excerpt of the discussion on ch. 5:

  In short, the 144,000 and the innumerable "Great Crowd" are best regarded as the same group at different temporal and perceptive viewpoints. Let us review the three features which seem to distinguish the two groups in ch. 7: (1) The 144,000 is drawn from the twelve tribes of Israel, while the Great Crowd is drawn "from every nation and tribe and people and language". At first glance, this would seem to be a firm criterion for treating the two groups as discontinuous. But since the text appears to treat the Christian community with Israelite designations, one could simply conclude that the "144,000" emphasizes the "servants of God" as "true Israel" (as the "nation" with whom God has made a covenant, i.e. the New Covenant). This community, at the same time, is composed of people "from every nation and tribe and people and language". The views of Justin Martyr quoted earlier are quite relevant in this regard. He believed that the "house of Jacob", the Israel of God's promise, was being regathered together...all the dispersed tribes that had been scattered to "all the nations". But the gathering was in Christ and thus Israel included both pagans and Jews, "all nations ... gathering ourselves together at Jerusalem" alongside the "patriarchs and prophets" (Dialogue, 24:3, 80.1). (2) The 144,000 are specifically numbered whereas the Great Crowd is impossible for man to count. This also would seem to imply that two different groups are meant here. But again, we should notice from the text that the Seer does not actually see the 144,000...he only hears their enumeration and what God has determined the total number to be (bear in mind the numbers are symbolic as well). It is only when he turns to look, that he sees an innumerable "Great Crowd" in heaven. But the text also makes plain that this vision of the "Great Crowd" pertains to events much later than his audition of the 144,000. The 144,000 must all be sealed before the woes of the seven trumpets can begin (ch. 8-9), whereas the vision of the "Great Crowd" occurs after there is "victory" (cf. ch. 18-19). Note also that there were martyred souls in heaven before this (ch. 6), and they had to wait for the rest of the martyrs to join them, so the "Great Crowd" could well include not just the 144,000 on earth at the time of the woes but also those martyred before then. (3) The 144,000 are endangered on the earth and need protective sealing whereas the Great Crowd have already undergone a "great tribulation" and are described as receiving their reward in heaven. This is to be expected considering the temporal disparity between the audition of the 144,000 and the vision of the "Great Crowd". Chapter 7 would then approach the same group at different points in time: first when they are imperiled by the coming woes, and later after the great tribulation when they are in heaven.

  There are two other pieces of evidence that support the above picture. Bauckham and those after him have noted the following striking passage in Revelation:

  "I wept bitterly because there was nobody fit to open the scroll and read it, but one of the elders said to me, 'There is no need to cry, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed, and he will open the scroll and its seven seals'. Then I saw standing between the throne with its four animals and the circle of the elders, a Lamb that seemed to have been sacrificed, it had seven horns, and it had seven eyes.... The Lamb came forward to take the scroll from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne, and when he took it, the four animals prostrated themselves before him and ... they sang a new hymn, 'You are worthy to take the scroll and break the seals off it because you were sacrificed, and with your blood you bought men for God of every race, language, people, and nation, and made them a line of kings and priests, to serve our God and rule the world' " (Revelation 5:4-10).

  Like ch. 7, the Seer first reports an audition followed by a vision. That is to say, he hears the Lion of Judah described but when he turns and looks, what he actually sees is a Lamb that had been slain. This is similar to hearing about the 144,000 but seeing "an innumerable great multitude". Of course, the Lion of Judah and the Lamb are actually the same being, i.e. Christ. The similarities between this passage and ch. 7 run deeper. The "Lion" is "from the tribe of Judah" (ek tés phulés Iouda), almost exactly the wording in Revelation 7:5 (Judah heads the list of the twelve tribes enumerated). The epithets "Lion of Judah" and "Root of David" are also messianic titles (drawn from Genesis 49:9, Isaiah 11:1, 10) suggestive of a Davidic Messiah who establishes a restored Israel (cf. 4QFlor 1-3 i 12, 4QPatr Bless 3-4, 4QpIsa 3:15-22, 4Q285 7:1-4, Testament of Judah 24:4-6, 4 Ezra 11:36-46, 12:32, Targum of Isaiah 11:1, 10), and this comports well with the militaristic and Israel-focused language pertaining to the 144,000 in 7:1-8. Furthermore, the Lion of Judah has "triumphed", again a phrasing with militaristic connotations. The vision of the Lamb also has many points of contact with the vision of the Great Crowd in 7:9-19. The word "Lamb" is the descriptor of choice for Jesus in this latter passage, and the word expresses the sacrificial death of Jesus... just as the martyrs who came out of the great tribulation also die their own deaths. The description of the Lamb emphasizes the fact that "you were sacrificed" and that it is "with your blood" that men have been redeemed for God. The Lamb also has a strictly heavenly setting, "standing between the throne with its four animals and the circle of elders", just as the "Great Crowd" was described as "standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb" and near the "angels in a circle round the throne, surrounding the elders and the four animals" (7:9, 11). Since the Lion of Judah and the Lamb are the same being, and since they are introduced in similar ways and with similar language as the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" in ch. 7, this makes it all the more plausible that 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" both refer to God's people from different points of view, emphasizing different aspects of their identity and role. Indeed, the people that the Lamb purchases for God (as described in 5:9-10) have traits of both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd". Like the "Great Crowd", they are "of every race, language, people, and nation (cf. 7:9), but like the 144,000 they have been "bought" or "redeemed" from the earth by the blood of the Lamb (cf. 14:3-4), and are mentioned in relation to the "new hymn" sung in heaven. And they are like those of the "first resurrection" (20:6), who serve as "priests" and reign as "kings" with Christ.

  There is a lot more material discussed in the thread itself.
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  tsar_robles

  hmm.. thanks Leo, seems to be the same thought, different wording yet same conclusion!

  I am slowly shedding those embedded jw doctrines while my beloved wife is being patient enough to put up with those moments where I may still might come up to sort of defend witnesses despite the many things we all know about them. We are still trying to make some sense of it all and decide a path for us to take...hmm are we asking too much?
• 

  jgnat

  We are still trying to make some sense of it all and decide a path for us to take...hmm are we asking too much?

  Is it too much to take on an earnest search for the truth? Continue to demand personal truth from yourself (integrity and awareness) as well as external truth (believe what you see).
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  triplestrength

  Just a thought, but here in england at the end of last year there was a program about John and the book of revelation which really made me think.

  Tony Robinson of time team fame made the point that the island that john was on, I think it was Patmos one of the main things that grew there at the end of the first century was what we know as "Magic mushrooms" eaten by the inhabitants quite freely. The conclusion to the program was really that the book of revelation was a drug induced vision by a very old man, Just a thought and it did make alot of sense to me..
• 

  tsar_robles

  lol, I'll look it up on youtube ;)