Can love and the tolerance of evil be compatible?

by truthseeker 8 Replies latest jw friends

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  truthseeker

  The age old question, "Why does God permit suffering" is probably the first question people ask about God.

  For years, the WT answer satisfied me - the universal issue of sovereignty, proving the Devil a liar, allowing enough time for humans to try every form of government and so on...

  Then I tried to understand the nature of free will, that God's love allows for both ends of the morality spectrum to happen - extremely good acts and extremely evil acts. After all, a loving God couldn't withold free will from his creatures because that would make us robots.

  I've come to realize now that this is not a satisfactory answer either, because when you make something intelligent and give it free will, you may not be responsible for what it does, but you are responsible for it.

  Parents know that if they leave their children in a car on a hot summer's day, their children can die from heat stroke. The parents are held responsible.

  While I do not blame God for the actions of men, I have to wonder whether or not God has an obligation to protect us from evil acts.

  The WT book "Draw Close To Jehovah" is perhaps one of the better books published by the Society. If you read it, you can might feel that God is with you, aware of you and your needs, temptations and vulnerability. Yet, at the end of the day, you can still die, have an accident or have something happen to someone else that affects you personally.

  Because the WT makes Jehovah seem only a prayer away, it can be difficult to harmonize an all powerful loving God who is near to us when our spirit is broken to a God who allowed the holocaust to happen, the 9/11 attacks, the Darfur genocide and his own "children" being raped and abused within the organziation."

  Consider some verses where God speaks of his love for the human race....

  Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God gave a demonstration to prove He loves you at Calvary -- where Jesus died a cruel death on a cross. He died, in your place, to set you free. Christ died for the ungodly. He took your place, suffering punishment you deserved. By dying for you, God proved He loved you supremely. There is no way He could have loved you more. Jesus proved that He loves you more than He loves Himself."

  John 3:16-18 NKJ
  16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
  17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
  18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  Consider some verses where God will give us what we need...

  Matthew 6:28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin"

  The Bible portrays a God who loved the human race so much that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for us. Christians will freely talk about this as if Jesus died yesterday. The truth is Jesus died 2,000 odd years ago. He left us a legacy and a hope of his return, but nothing more to that effect. His very short life span demonstrated his love for manking by curing them of diseases, expelling demons and raising the dead. That only lasted for 3 1/2 years.

  I think to myself, surely a God of such immeasurable love would simply act today, he would want to act now at this very moment. He would want to rid the world of evil people, put an end to human misery - yet, something holds him back. How is his love for us held back? Why does he not act on it? Why do we hear constantly from the platform about what Jehovah promises but never live long enough to see these promises?

  How can an omnipresent God, who searches through billions of hearts and minds, observing everyone, not be moved to act?

  And this is the great question I cannot answer - how does a God of such love, as described in the Scriptures, permit the existence of evil. Are the two really compatible?
• 

  Satanus

  The things that are considered to be evil among humans, go on among animals as well. Is it only evil when it happens to/between humans, and not to/between animals? Perhaps our suffering is deeper because we are more conscious. But, the point is, what is evil? Is it only evil among humans, or among animals, as well? From where did it originate?
  
  Secondly, there is a simple resolution to the conflict that is vexing you. The all loving, all powerful, all knowing god simply isn't there. I'm not saying that there isn't something there. But, all evidence leads to the conclusion that it's not the jewish god, yhwh.
  
  S
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  Gretchen956

  Well for every verse you can show a loving god I can show two that show a vengeful hateful god that killed people willy nilly. I ask you, who is really evil here? He condemned those who sacrificed babies to "false gods" but then killed every man woman child and infant in whole cities, towns, and sometimes genocide of an entire country.

  When I was growing up we were always encouraged to read the bible. We had goals of so many verses, or chapters, etc., so that eventually you would read the entire thing (which I did in whole 7 different times). I always felt funny about this god of love stuff. He saves us by murdering his son? He blasts whole cities because they aren't hospitable to his emmisaries (angels)?

  I've always had this image (thank you WTS) of this angry jealous old bearded white god up there on the throne. I just did not identify with him. Still don't.

  Still I sucked it up and suppressed those doubts for many years. Personally I think there's as much cognitive dissonence in this belief as there is in JWs belief any day of the week.

  Sherry
• 

  R.Crusoe

  Good question Truthseeker. Age old!! Is there an answer?

  It is interesting what you say Satanus. Some would say so long as you don't deliberately harm someone you have done no harm. Still others may reason their morality is superior and authorises them to wipe out a race of people.

  I agree with you Sherry! It is interesting when you are in a position of perspective, to consider exactly how some belief systems have evolved. Furthermore the tolerance of them by the governments in power is likely more an indication of how they help keep the population within predictable guidliness considered beneficial in some way. Apparently it was seen as a revelation how Islam succeeded in controlling masses of people throughout Europe from 900-1200AD. So you see, in many cases the religions which are most successful through the centuries are those which have helped build empires and keep a reasonable unity throughout, minimising the likelihood of civil uprisings.

  We all know how JW philosophy use the family civil war situation to weaken family units and keep some dependent on them whilst isolating ones who fade - or Crusoefying them onto an effective social/spiritual desert island for more years than is healthy for them.
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  cognizant dissident

  No, love and evil are incompatible because "evil" is the doing of harm to another being and is, therefore, the antithesis of "love". This is why so many have trouble swallowing the God of the Bible as a god of "love". They have to make up very convoluted and bizarre reasonings to explain the cognitive dissonance.

  That was easy! Next!

  Cog
• 

  R.Crusoe

  Perfect love is unconditional love. It is perfect in forgiveness. But does it have limits?

  Jesus philosophy suggests returning evil for evil to no one. But could you let a loved one be killed and not attempt to disarm or have to kill the aggresor?

  Is perfect love a total tolerance of all evil - loving your enemy to the point of never returning harm to them at any price?

  As soon as this ruling is breached there ensues lists of circumstances in which different individuals would retaliate. And teaching those to next generations leads to furthere concessions. Eventually we get an eye for an eye mentality. The original 'love' philosophy disintegrates. And furthermore vengeance tests limits still further. Litigation sanctions vengeance and promotes it as a form of justice. So the boundary between good and evil is mixed as a poison to further pour on other humans.

  In a battle of love and tolerance of evil, the latter will usually win every time. Those wielding the sword will enslave those refusing to do so.

  Love makes concessions to regulate evil intent but in so doing compromises its own morality, often to a position where it displays more evil than that which it seeks to regulate - and then expects forgiveness when it refused to. The question remains and the goalposts are moved on a frequent basis!
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  AllTimeJeff

  No.

  While I do not blame God for the actions of men, I have to wonder whether or not God has an obligation to protect us from evil acts.

  If god exists and he is loving, then he should be held to the same standards that parents in today's world are. No loving parent uses their children as an experiment to demonstrate that they should be worshiped. Parent's would be thrown in jail for neglect and abuse if they treated their kids the way god supposedly treated Adam and Eve in the allegory of Gen 1-3.

  (a small aside to JW theology: BOOHOO JEHOVAH!!! Satan questioned your right to rule, then Adam and Eve took a bite of fruit from YOUR little tree... BOO FREAKIN HOO!!! So you get your panties in a wad Jehovah and condemn mankind to horrible suffering so you can stand aside and be an "I told you so" God. BOO FREAKING HOO! You sure are worthy to be worshipped, since you have done SO MUCH for man, like sending Jesus to die for us 2000 years ago? That has done mankind TONS of good. BOO FREAKING HOO THAT YOUR SOVREIGNTY WAS QUESTIONED. IT WAS QUESTIONED WITH EXCELLENT REASON, YOU ABSENTEE PARENT. BOO FREAKING HOO!)

  ...that felt good. Anyway the point is that inexperienced kids are off limits. Or should be. Why experiment on us?

  You probably guess that I have learned that the bible with it's myriad of confusing personalities that are attributed to god is simply not true. If god existed, he absolutely should protect us from Satan, not use mankind to prove his point to Satan. WTF?? Not that it matters, its just our modern day version of Zeus that everyone has to deal with.
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  journey-on

  In order for the Intelligent Creative Energy to experience the dynamic of the physical world, there must be conflict.

  Without positive and negative energy and the push and pull of these forces, everything would be static. Nothing would be moving or growing or evolving!

  Balance is the KEY to everything. Everything strives toward balance by means of this push and pull of opposites.

  When you stop looking at God as a Big Sky Daddy and realize that each and everything in creation is part of this Intelligent Creative Energy

  and plays their part in this DANCE OF LIFE, the experience on this physical plane will become a joy and you will consciously contribute toward the

  Good of All by living your Life in Love and Light and making your contribution with right intentions. What happens to the Energy of your Consciousness

  after it leaves the physical plane may be determined by how much you were able to balance this pull of opposites.....Good vs. Evil.
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  cognizant dissident

  LOL @ ATJ. That was funny. I could picture Stephen Colbert saying that!

  Jorney On:

  Interesting perspective. I would like to throw a monkey wrench into it though and ask why we would label some energy as negative and some as positive? It is true that the world and all in it are subject to the push and pull of many forces. That is just the nature of the world. Why label it positive/negative or good/evil. Isn't it possible that those are just artificial human constructs/meanings that are real only in our own minds.

  Cog