1 Tim 2:11-15 Subjection: Is Paul's reasoning flawed?

by Steve J 4 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Steve J
    Steve J
    A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach, or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (NIV Bible)

    Jesus Apostles and disciples obviously believed that God's Spirit was poured out upon them at Pentecost 33 CE, in fulfillment of Joel 2 which talks about sons and daughters prophesying. It would be logical then, for at least those women who had received the Spirit to preach and prophesy in public, (and in the congregation) otherwise there would be little point in them receiving the Spirit.

    Paul also writes to the Corinthian's saying that a woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head. This suggests that women did indeed prophesy in public. (1 Cor 11;5) But Paul's argument above, at 1 Timothy 2, seems flawed to me.

    1"For Adam was created first, then Eve." What does it matter who was created first? Genesis tells us that Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam and the NWT uses the words "as a compliment of him." In other words she made Adam complete. There is no mention of subjection in the account as far as I can see.

    2 "Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." Again the NWT uses the words "thoroughly deceived," and in my understanding someone who is thoroughly deceived is less guilty than one such as Adam who acted willfully, knowing that what he was doing was breaking God's law.

    3"But women will be saved through childbearing"Is Paul really suggesting here that a woman's only saving grace is her ability to produce children? If so, what about barren women who are unable to produce children? is there no hope for them?

    Steve J

  • belbab
    belbab

    Steve J

    He was telling this because he had love for them and wanted to protect them from the fires of persecution. Many disagree.

    Go to: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/124971/1.ashx

    belbab

  • dogisgod
    dogisgod

    1. Adam was a prototype. Eve was the final product.

    2. So if Eve "was deceived and "became a sinner" then what was Adam...more than a sinner....dead meat?

    3. So what meaning does this reduce Christ's sacrifice? Since he was the redeemer or Greater Adam did he only die for what Adam did and not Eve? How can you be saved by popping out kids?

    4. Paul spoke a lot thru his butt, ever single, heavy anti woman religious and cultural lifelong training...he came to Christianity late in the game...very late...but kept his former beliefs. In anyone was the first Pontiff (as in pontificator)it was Paul not Peter.

    5. Paul was and ass.

  • Awakened07
    Awakened07

    Hmm... According to Paul, Adam was Eve's head (as in any other marriage, right?), so he should take responsibility, shouldn't he? Adam shouldn't have listened to her in the first place, being as she was 'only a woman'. Not my words, really.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Steve J,

    This was covered in another thread but you give Paul credit for saying things that Jewish believers supported and Paul argues against. Paul supported the equality of women and did not require them to have a head covering. Their long hair was adequate for them. It would be nice if you included the entire section in which such arguments were put forth. Then Paul's rebuttal would become visible.

    Joseph

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