Another serious WTO blunder

Chalam

Hi,
Off the back of the excellent "Letter of Disassociation" http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/150963/1.ashx I was checking out a couple of bits of the Bible.

Romans 8:14-16 (New International Version)
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba,[b] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Galatians 4:6-7 (New International Version)
6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba,[a] Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Paul says basically the same thing in each. However, in one he writes "Spirit of God" and in the other "Spirit if his Son".
So unless you believe there are two spirits which do the same thing (unlikely) then what does that mean?
Obviously, The Spirit of God IS the Spirit Of Jesus, that Jesus IS God and God IS Jesus.
Notice also the Spirit is referred to as "him" and "who", certainly not an 'active force' thing.

Once again we have the Trinity in the Bible, the Father, the Son and the Spirit, three but one in the same.

I checked the NWT and it even agrees (for the time being until they tamper with this as well).

Regards,
Stephen

R.Crusoe

Billions of books are out there! I just dont do the lottery anymore - it cost me too much already!

Chalam

Hi R.Crusoe,
Well don't forget the Bible is the biggest selling book of all time so no doubt that is not without reason :)

There are plenty of lottery winners who have read the Bible.

The winning numbers 777 :)

666 is a losing combination every time :(

The key to getting the right numbers is Jesus.

Ask Him and he will help you fill in your lottery card.

All the best,
Stephen

moshe

I used to go over Bible verses with a magnifying glass like that.

Chalam

Was that the NWT?

dawg

And you must be right, everyone agrees with you, all the way down to the "Conference of Nicea" in 325AD. Seriously dude, if you start with a bad premice, you know like the Bible is the literal word of God, you'll always come up with the wrong answer.

NO one knows for sure about the trinity, that's why its been argued ad nausium forever! Your intrepretation is one of many... good for you if you think you have the answer to a question that can't be answered... good for you.

Caedes

The key to getting the right numbers is Jesus.

Ask Him

You've found him? wow, he's been missing for a long time, where was he?

worldtraveller

I am interested in more tidbits Chalam. Been enjoying them. See if you can focus on following Jesus instead of the Wt. It would be an interesting read. Bill.

Chalam

"You've found him? wow, he's been missing for a long time, where was he? "

Jesus explains it all here.

John 14 (New International Version)

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

OK here is my explanation of the passage if it isn't clear where Jesus has been.

15-16 So Jesus says he will ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit to be with his followers when he leaves.

17 Then Jesus describes that the Spirit will live in those who follow him but the world will not know the Spirit or see him.
Note that Jesus clearly describes the Spirit as a person ("him") not a thing, and after all the Spirit is a counselor!

18 Jesus says he will come to us. Strange as Jesus just said he was leaving and the Spirit was coming?

19 Then Jesus says the world will not see him any longer but those who follow his command's will. Look back to 17 and you see that Jesus said the same thing about the Spirit. So obviously they are the same.

20 When this happens we will understand that Jesus and the Father are one (Jn 10:30), we are part of them too (joint heirs with Christ Rm 8:17 etc.) and that Jesus and the Spirit are one also because Jesus is living in us.

21 He who follows Christ command loves Christ. The Father will love him and Christ and the Spirit will live in him (see 17 again).

22 Self explanitory question

23 Those that love Jesus follow his teaching. Also the Father will love them too. They will come and make their home with them (another reference to the Spirit). See Rm 8:9 too.

24 Those that do not love Jesus will not follow his teachings (these are the Father's words).

25 Jesus is explaining things before they happen so they could understand when the did (Acts 2).

26 The Spirit, the Father will send in Jesus' name will teach follower of Christ all things and remind them of Jesus' commands (1 Cor 2:14).

27 Jesus leaves his followers peace, not the peace of the world but a supernatural peace (Ph 4:7)

Hopefully you are getting the multiple references to the doctrine of the Trinity in these verses and have noted that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal 'active force' (a false translation of Gen 1:2). Also that Jesus have been around even since the Spirit came to the us back in Acts 2.

All the best,
Stephen

jwfacts

NWT puts Romans slightly differently.

(Romans 8:14-17) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!" 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together. . .

I have seen Nark post previously that Paul does not differentiate between Gods spirit and the Sons spirit, and this is a reason that Early Christians saw equality between the two. Galatians 4:6 is a good example of this.

Another serious WTO blunder

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