2 figurative numbers doesn't = 1 literal number!

by WingCommander 5 Replies latest jw friends

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  WingCommander

  I think this was posted on another one of the forums on here, but I think it is good enough to warrant repeating. When someone posted this logic, it made so much sense and I couldn't believe I had never thought of this before!

  In regards to the book of Revelation and the 144,000, the WTBS believes that the 12,000 Jews out of the 12 tribes of Israel are figurative. Now, they believe the 144,000 to be a literal number. Hello?!?! Explain to me again how (2) figurative numbers add up to (1) literal number? This is outrageous, and shows the extents and mental jump-rope someone has to do in order to make their theology work.

  After careful consideration, I myself believe the 144,000 to be a literal number in heaven, Jews that will eventually accept Jesus as their Messiah and rule with him as Kings. The "Great Crowd" you ask? I am uncertain about this. It clearly states in Revelation that the "Great Crowd" who are many from all races and tongues and are not numbered, worship at the foot of the throne IN HEAVEN. JW's answer to this is that planet earth is in "The Heavens", or is a "Heavenly Body", and therefore their interpretation of the Great Crowd worshiping from a paradise earth is correct. But think about it, John was so specific about who comprised the 144,000 and the Great Crowd, but yet was "fuzzy" on the location of the Great Crowd? I call BS here - he could have easily have stated that the Great Crowd was worshipping from a paradise earth!

  Also, JW's claim they John was talking about a "figurative, spiritual Israel" comprised of "New Christians". If that's the case, why did John so specifically state who and how many comprised the 144,000, and also specifically made a point to state who comprised the Great Crowd? The circular logic around this entire doctrine have given me a migraine as of lately, trying to decipher my inbred, indoctrinated JW training from what others and my research is now telling my logical, analytical mind.

  Is this what is known as “cognitive dissidence”? If so, I’m there.

  What is everyone else’s thoughts concerning this somewhat difficult doctrine? How do your opinions and beliefs now differ from the JW’s, and can you explain why you believe the way you do?

  I believe this is a good topic to have on here since I know the JW’s are currently studying the messed up, “Revelation! It’s Grand Climax at Hand!” book again. Don’t worry, I’ve already concluded that the trumpet blasts couldn’t possibly represent a couple of conventions back in the 30’s and 40’s….what gall!!

  Regards,

  Wing Commander
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  DT

  the WTBS believes that the 12,000 Jews out of the 12 tribes of Israel are figurative.

  My last comment as a JW was about this. I started to feel cognitive dissonance right away. It didn't take long before I realised how messed up their reasoning is.
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  proplog2

  The 144,000 are the ones that follow the lamb no matter where he goes, even into sacrificial death. They are ALL martyrs.
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  dawg

  No one has explained to me yet why the 144k is supposed to be the only ones to partake of the Memorial...what is the scriptures that back this up... and as for John 6....it says everyone that wants to have everlasting life must partake.
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  cabasilas

  This is a point that also bothered me and I wrote these questions about it:

  12,000 & 144,000 - Literal or Symbolic?

  Revelation 7:4-8 speaks of 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. 12,000 are to be sealed from each tribe. On pages 12 and 13 of Commentary on the Letter of James (published in 1979 by the Watchtower Society) we are told:

  "Since natural Israel consisted of 12 tribes, it logically follows that spiritual Israel would be spoken of as having 12 tribes to show that it was a complete spiritual nation, with no part or tribe missing. There is no numerical imbalance within spiritual Israel, for the Bible book of Revelation symbolically reveals that an equal number-12,000-is sealed from every tribe. (Rev. 7:4-8)" (Emphasis ours)

  If the number 12,000 from each tribe is symbolic, wouldn't the total be symbolic also? If the number 144,000 is literal, shouldn't there be 12 literal groups of 12,000 comprising the 144,000? To say the 12,000 is symbolic and the total 144,000 is literal is inconsistent. (Interestingly, most Jehovah's Witnesses would interpret the numbers 12,000 and 144 elsewhere in the book of Revelation to be symbolic, as at Revelation 21:16,17.) Consistency demands that the numbers should be considered both literal or both symbolic.

  From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/onehope.html
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  Abandoned

  It's even worse though. Because both of those figurative numbers that are then multiplied into a literal number come from a book of fairy tales.