Veryhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc5u2EkD-7E&feature=related intresting video of ray franz giving a talk on youtube .Its in four parts though so you,ll have to look for the other three.
Ray franz talk video
by jacethespace 6 Replies latest watchtower bible
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OnTheWayOut
Thanks for this post. In part 2, Ray says "We are victims of victims."
He means that the people who tricked us are captive to the same concepts
they pass on. He indicates that we should not be so hateful toward the
organization because of that. While I agree with his concepts, I fully
believe that the powerful men in WTS use their warped concepts to
justify misleading their members. For that, I am bitter and reserve the right
to have some "hate" for WTS. I will forgive any leader that comes out and
admits his contributions to this false prophet. -
JosephMalik
He means that the people who tricked us are captive to the same concepts they pass on. He indicates that we should not be so hateful toward the organization because of that.
Onthewayout,
Comare that to some others that were captives like this in the first century. Most were Christian Jews still keeping the Law that held them captive which at least was truth for thousands of years. What did the Apostles say about them?
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
And the NT goes on and on like this with a promise that such ones will be thrown out as evil slaves. Perhaps less emothion and more reality should be applied to a WTS that kills others with their false doctrines and destroy families just to stay in power?
Joseph
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WTWizard
There is a big difference between being mad at the organization, and being mad at the leaders. One can properly forgive any of the leaders who is making a sincere effort to right the organization, or if they leave it altogether. However, I believe that the organization itself is way beyond forgiveness, as are the leaders that are doing everything to keep it that way. People like Al Schroeder and Ted Jaracz are hardened in the organization; Raymond Franz was not. In fact, Ray was the only one that tried to do anything to improve it from within. Note what the other leaders, and the organization, did when one person tried to fix the problems.
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lesterd
thanks for the post, I have corresponed with Ray and it was good to see him, downloaded and burn to cd the first two clips, my grandfather was baptized in 1911 and road the train with the judge.
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still_in74
marking for later
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JosephMalik
There is a big difference between being mad at the organization, and being mad at the leaders. One can properly forgive any of the leaders who is making a sincere effort to right the organization, or if they leave it altogether.
WTwizard,
There is only one leader and that is the Christ. You can say that of the Apostles perhaps since He appointed them and whoever they laid hands upon but not of anyone else. The verses did not divide the faith in the way you do and forgive them. What big difference is their really between them? That little guys were stupid and mislead? But they destroyed lives and families just the same. The false doctrine were also the same and just as destructive. It was the teaching of such ones that the scriptures rejected which applies to anyone involved in it big, little or whatever not just some supposed top dogs. They are all condemned. We were part of it and may feel sorry for our involvement but that does not make us innocent of the crimes. We had to repent. What do you think it means to: Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire ; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Joseph