Help with Luke

by Mr Grrrr 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Mr Grrrr

  hi there,

  The only bible i have right now is a NWT so i need suggestions for a new bible!

  I also found this in the NWT and i never spotted it before, I was hoping someone could explain it with a JW mindset?

  Luke 16:19-31
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  Mr Grrrr

  19 “But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz´a·rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.

  “Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz´a·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’ 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”
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  auxillaryapostate

  Hi, its been awhile since i read the JWs version of Luke. but what i remember is "the rich man" is "Christendom" and verse 28 the "five brothers" meant "all the churches". They used verses 23-24 to prove there was no burning hell. Sorry not much help. It's been too long and got rid of their publications. Hate that cult.
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  auxillaryapostate

  I like the NJB or KJ.
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  Deputy Dog

  Mr Grrrr

  I also found this in the NWT and i never spotted it before, I was hoping someone could explain it with a JW mindset?

  Luke 16:19-31

  From Reasoning from the Scriptures

  By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

  Is the

  account,at Luke16:19-31,literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
  

  What does the parable mean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

  After the JWs read this to me I ask them: So what was the moral of this story?

  As for a bible try www.e-sword.net you shoul find something there you like it's FREE!

  I like the NASB
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  WTWizard

  [19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
  [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
  [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
  [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
  [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
  [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
  [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
  [26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
  [27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
  [28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
  [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
  [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
  [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

  This came from the King James version, which is available online free of charge for anyone to read.
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  glenster

  A couple I've heard good thing about:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Standard_Version

  Online:

  http://www.biblegateway.com/
• 

  Leolaia

  Mr. Grrrr....I'm not sure on what you are asking for, an explanation of the official JW interpretation of the parable or an explanation of what the parable really means for someone with a JW mindset?

  As far as the first is concerned, the Society treats the parable as an allegory, with the deaths of Lazarus and the Rich Man being only symbolic of a changed condition of the figures they are supposed to represent. This explanation does not arise from the text itself but is required by the Society's eschatology, which maintains that the situation presumed by the parable (a postmortem conscious existence) does not really exist. Only some of the parables are allegorical, others -- particularly the narrative ones -- rather describe an idealized situation that is instructive to the Christian. These are particularly common in Luke; other examples include the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32 and the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37. These are closer in literary terms to the Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus in ch. 16 (such as the mistreatment of the Samaritan being similar to the mistreatment of Lazarus), and none of these are allegorical. The presupposed scenarios are fictional, but plausible. Samaritans really were hated and mistreated by Jews in first-century Judean society; the author was not making up a situation that did not exist in the mind of the reader. Similarly, the return of a long-lost son was a situation that surely happened in the culture and in literature (cf. the story of Joseph in Genesis for an example), even if the specific story in the parable is fictional. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was also fictional but presupposed an eschatological scenario that the readers accepted as real. It's not as if Jesus had to invent a situation that no one believed existed in order to make an allegory.

  The Society also points to the use of hyperbole in the parable as an indicator that the eschatological scenario depicted therein is not meant to reflect what was believed about a postmortem conscious existence. But hyperbole and exaggerated imagery was a general feature of Jesus' synoptic sayings, which make them memorable -- think of the imagery of a log in a person's eye, the mustard seed being the smallest of seeds growing into a tree, passing camels through a needle of an eye, etc. And it isn't just poetic license but also the use of paradoxes, reversals, irony, and humor.

  The imposition of an allegorical reading here is reminiscent of how the Society makes 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 allegorical, such that the "third heaven" and "paradise" is only symbolic of the "spiritual paradise" among Jehovah's Witnesses in the 20th (oops, now 21st) century. This denies the passage the clear implication that paradise is located in heaven -- an idea shared with the literature of the time.

  The depiction of postmortem existence of not only Lazarus and the Rich Man but also Abraham in the parable is perfectly in accord with what Jews and Christians believed at the time, including the notion of postmortem punishment and torture. Here you can find a collection of quotes from writings from the third century BC onward (including the Dead Sea Scrolls) that attest this notion, and demonstrate that it is not a late intrusion into Christian belief:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/134604/2396862/post.ashx#2396862
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  Mr Grrrr

  Wow, thanks for all the great replies! Now i know what my sister (who is still a JW) will say to me so i can think of 1 million questions to ask her.

  Thanks again!