On knowing what you are not supposed to know and . . .

by Lady Lee 8 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Over 20 years ago I came across this theory "On knowing what you are not 
    supposed to know and feeling what you are not  supposed to feel" At the time 
    my  focus  was on abusive families and how this concept fit into it.
      
    The citation for the article follows but I will break it down.
      

     
    Title: On knowing what you are not supposed to know and feeling what you are 
    not supposed to feel.
    Author(s)/Editor(s): Bowlby, John
    Source/Citation: Canadian Journal of Psychiatry; Vol 24(5) Aug 1979, Canada: 
     Canadian Psychiatric Assn; 1979, 403-408
    Abstract/Review/Citation: Contends that much psychopathology stems from 
     impressions, scenes, and experiences of childhood having been forgotten yet 
     continuing to influence thought, feeling, and action. . . In explaining both the 
     nature of the material shut away and the causes of its being so, attention is 
     called to the role that a child's parents play. Examples are given of parents 
     who seek to disconfirm their child's observations of events, to disapprove or 
     condemn their natural emotional responses to distressing situations, and to 
     discourage their children from registering aspects of their (the parents') 
     personalities and behavior. Pressure exerted on the children to conform to 
     their parents' wishes can be crude or subtle, but its effectiveness depends on 
     the child's insistent desire to be loved and protected. (French abstract) (13 ref)
     

     
    [The theory] Contends that much psychopathology stems from 
    impressions, scenes, and experiences of childhood having been 
    forgotten yet  continuing to influence thought, feeling, and action. 
     
    Bowlby, who coined the term believed that while children are very young and 
    impressionable they may be forced to forget events that occur and even though 
    events are fogotten they may still have a negative influence on the child's 
    development
     
    In explaining both the nature of the material shut away and the causes 
    of its being so, attention is called to the role that a child's parents play.
     
    He contends that we need to  pay attention to the role of the parent may play 
    in aid in the forgetting and the impact of behaviours that resulted from the original 
    events. 
     
    Examples are given of parents who seek to disconfirm their child's obser-
    vations of events, to disapprove or condemn their natural emotional 
    responses to distressing situations, and to discourage their children from 
    registering aspects of their (the parents') personalities and behavior. 
     
    Now this is where I think things get very interesting and I can see an application 
    to our experiences as JWs.
     
    First the application to children:
     
    I had a clients a few years ago who recalled waking up in the morning to see 
    his father passed out on the kitchen floor. His mother explained the father on 
    the floor that he was "sleeping" as she stepped over him to serve breakfast. The 
    children were not allowed to acknowledge the alcoholism. I had a similar thing 
    happen in my family. I recall asking my mother if my father "drank". Her response 
    was that he got sick when he drank so of course he didn't. This was supposed to 
    be a denial of any  problem drinking on his part. But for many years it negated my 
    memories of beer  bottles all over the place in the morning and the smell of alcohol 
    on his breath. I  remembered going to the beer store so he definitely did drink. He 
    might have  gotten him sick but it sure didn't stop him. 
     
    As an adult I still hate the smell of left over beer mixed with crushed out cigaratte 
    butts in the bottle. Now if I continued to believe my mother's take on this I would 
    be left with an unexplicable reaction to the smell of stale beer and cigarettes. 
     
    Pressure exerted on the children to conform to their parents' wishes can 
    be crude or subtle, but its effectiveness depends on the child's insistent 
    desire to be loved and protected.
     
    By the nature of their status, children are dependant on the adults around them. 
    They know they are dependant on the adults for food, shelter, and clothing. Their 
    lives would be at risk without adults to care for them. They need to be protected 
    and they have an inherent need to be loved and cared for. In healthy families the 
    child's needs get met with few problems.
     
    But when the child's needs are not met or the child gets mixed or confusing 
    messages  from  the parent on some level the child knows something is wrong. 
    Some  kids act out (negative attention is better than no attention). 
     
    Other kids  become  the the family care-taker, not only caring for the other children
    in the home  but also taking care of the parents. 
     
    Whether the child is the "acting out child" or the "care-taker" they need deny the
    knowledge that the adults are not capable of being "parents". To acknowledge 
    this role reversal would force the child to understand that no one is there to care 
    for him or her. And that would cause too much psychological conflict. So the 
    child's mind blots out the conflict and does what needs to be done to get their 
    needs met - cognitive distortion.
     
    When the parent says "Daddy is sleeping" as she steps over his body on the kitchen 
    floor the child knows not to confront the mother on the reality of daddy sleeping on 
    the floor. When I was younger I never dared to disagree with either of my parents 
    regardless of what the issue was. 
     
    So let's move this to the WTS, who sits as all-powerful parent that protects, feeds 
    and cares for the "children" in their care. 
     
    The WTS sets itself in the position of "mother" to the flock, providing food in due 
    season, and protection from the dangers of the world. Like most dysfunctional 
    families there are rules about how to be well-fed (studies and meetings) and how to 
    stay safe within the family (the only source of safety is within God's sole 
    organization, keep the family secrets - especially from outsiders). Leaving the family 
    means death. Punishment is doled out because of the great love for the "children. 
    Questioning of how the family runs (or their beliefs) is forbidden.
     
    To remain within the family one must "forget" the conflicts - poor food, iron fist of 
    discipline,  control of every aspect of a person's life, and the memory of  oldlight vs 
    new light.
     
    JWSs have to forget that the WTS once taught one thing and has denied they ever 
    taught something, they have see-sawed back and forth over beliefs and practices 
    and metes out discipline that is a far, far cry from being loving.
     
    Since they have convinced people they are the sole representative of God, family 
    members must remain loyal to the point of "knowing what you are not 
    supposed to know and feeling what you are not  supposed to feel"
     
     
  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    sorry about the formatting - trying to fix it only makes it worse

  • Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit
    Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit

    Interesting read. My mother told me I did NOT remember her assaulting my dad on many occasions. The broken window in their bedroom was NOT from her throwing a box of laundry detergent at him. (I saw it happen). When I was 18 I took my mom's hand once, as we talked I saw for the first time the scars on her wrist from one of the times she tried to kill herself, she denied it, said that they were nothing. And still at age 71, pioneer for 30 years, wife of same elder, she's still perfect, she's still the boss of everyone, she knows everything.

    And when it comes to the WTS, doctrine changes, evil application of the JW shunning rule, deadly blood transfusion law, changed dates, false prophecy, child endangerment and sexual abuse, why. . .

    that's just daddy asleep on the kitchen floor. Juice anyone?

    I get it.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    The last time my sister and I were with our mother we were talking about our grandmother (mother's mother). My sister said our grandmother hated kids and mother said it wasn't true. My sister and I both piped uo "Yes she did!" MY mother backed down and admitted her mother hated kids.

    It's the constant mental rewriting of history and the refusal of people to disagree that allows people to stop thinking about their own personal history.

    The WTS capiatlizes on this. They busily rewrite history all the time. And they do it in a way that silently moves JWs to accept the newest version of history lesson.

    JWs who lived through various time periods (1975, early 1980s, death of some who obeyed WT medical rules only to have the rules changed, etc.) submissively bury those memories. They know these things happened but they are often buried so deep that when confronted with the past events they meekly deny those things ever happened or that they matter.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Pioneer spit

    Isn't it just amazing how they can deny what really happened. If they want to forget it, they will. And they will deny the memory of others to keep their own version on top. I doubt my mother would acknowledge my father with his hands around her neck while her head dangled over the end of the bed. I saw it. I know I saw it but I doubt she would admit it.

    What all this denial of history does to the mind is sad. People begin to doubt themselves. They cannot continue to believe their own experience, their feelings and thoughts. To continue to rely on your own experience puts the mind in conflict with the other history. If some sort of sanction is exacted for the refusal to accept the rewritten history then it makes it easier to force a person to accept the body on the floor is just sleeping.

  • tall penguin
    tall penguin

    As a married jw, I fell in love with a "worldly" friend and ended up doing stuff that landed me in a judicial committee. For six hours the elders tried to rewrite my memories of this man, telling me it couldn't possibly be real love. I was mindf*$ked to say the least. It took me years to get back my original feelings and claim them for myself. So many times I let elders get into my head and rewrite my history. Not good for one's mental health. Not good at all.

    tall penguin

  • Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit
    Pioneer Spit...oh, i mean Spirit

    Wow tall penguin and lady lee. TP, did you just shake your head later and think, 'wait, wasn't I there, I know how I felt???' Geez.

    An easy doctrinal one is 1975, where THEY said it would be the end. When it wasn't the end, THEY said it was the flock who conjured up all this date excitement, 'some of the flock, who in their enthusiasm to see Jehvoah's Day come, had incorrectly placed emphasis on a date...' And the flock says, 'yeah that was us, weren't we silly'. We had to dig up decades old WTs and other lit to prove that THEY printed it, THEY taught it. Then when confronted, THEY say and now have the flock saying, 'that's old, that's apostate, we never believed that, where did you get that, the internet?'

    On a personal level, when I was a teen jw, I had on several occasions had elders come up to me and scold me or ridicule me after a meeting, just because they could, and I had never been in any sort of elders' meeting for 'wrongdoing'. I would go to the car and cry, and go home and be miserable, and think, 'how can my shepherd treat me this way?' And I'd cry to my parents that they'd always say, 'He didn't mean it, you must have misunderstood, and HOW can you criticize that brother when you've hurt people too, and don't you know that he's just an imperfect man trying to fulfill is obligation to SAVE YOUR LIFE?!'

    Have I mentioned how I despise THEM!

  • tall penguin
    tall penguin

    "TP, did you just shake your head later and think, 'wait, wasn't I there, I know how I felt???' Geez."

    I know what I felt. It just took me a few years before I allowed myself to believe it again. I allowed the elders to convince me that a "worldly" person couldn't possibly know what true love is. And that what we had was all a lie. Talk about projecting! Idiots.

    tall penguin

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    a couple of thoughts

    JWs are a happy people. They know they are happy because they are told they are happy.

    So . . . what happens to people who are sick, depressed, angry Well it has to be something wrong with them. Because if they were preaching enough and getting to all the meetings and studying enough and praying enough they would be happy . . . Right?

    Another story from a someone. When she and her broghters were young their mother always gave them the same parts of the chicken or turkey - one got the leg - because that is what he liked best. Another got the breast meat because that is what he liked. And yes the girl got the thigh because that is what she liked. It took her to adulthood before someone asked her why she always took the same part. She said her mother always told her that is the part she liked. Her friend asked her if she had ever tried the white meat. No she had never tried it.

    Her mother determined who should eat what and convinced each child that she knew best. And as little kids they never dreamed of challenging her.

    It truly is amazing how easy it is to play mind games with people who don't have all the information

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