Secular Progress (Response to Watchtower, feb 1 2008)

by Spook 3 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Spook
    Spook

    In response to the Watchtower's insults to the potential of secular solutions, I submit the following two lists. The first list is a collection of benefitial changes to mankind which came about as a primarily secular response against traditional religioius views. Even those issues which had some faith based support enjoyed this in the face of massive internal conflict and confusion on religions position based off of sacred texts. (The following lists come from a lecture by Dan Barker, with some additions from me)

    1. Slavery.
    2. Women's right to go to college, work outside the home, etc.
    3. Women's right to vote.
    4. Use of anesthesia during childbirth.
    5. Lightning rods.
    6. Birth control.
    7. Divorce.
    8. Working on the Sabbath.
    9. Prohibition.
    10. Interracial marriage.
    11. Nonbelievers holding public office.
    12. Invetro fertilization.
    13. Pre-marital sex.
    14. (I will personally add to Dan's list: Vaccinations, organ transplants, blood transfusions and medicine in general. Space travel...The age of consenting sex with adults...male and female circumcision...)

    The only clarity, peace and progress in the face of above issues has been secular in nature, giving no undue importance to the interpretation of believers on the issues. Nations in which the above are still currently contested usually have some faith based objections to the issues. On any contested point, you will find historically and currently that believers in the same holy texts have no consensus on the issues. Not only that, but the issues which face society today have no agreement among religions on the exact stance their sacred text takes. You can find faithful believers on both sides of the issue. While the following issues are by no means solved, the only solution will be a secular one:

    1. Stem cell research.
    2. Abortion.
    3. Capital punishment.
    4. Gay rights and gay marriage.
    5. Doctor assisted suicide and end of life rights.
    6. Gun control.
    7. Marijuana use.
    8. The Ordination of female ministers.
    9. Corporal punishment (physically disciplining children).
    10. The global response to terrorism.
    11. Torture.
    12. Teaching evolution in public schools.
    13. Animal rights.
    14. (My additions: How to set up a rational justice system? Should it be retribution, or protection and rehabilitation?)

    All of the above are contested. All of the above are open to research, discussion, debate and compromise. I dare say, however, that the religious community offers no insight capable of solving these problems. In the light of the first list, I submit that secular values which base decisions on reasoning and the democratic process are the only solutions that can produce progress. Are we going to wait on Jehovah to solve these? Or are we secular individuals going to struggle, always uphill and against religious dogma, to find a pro-human position that safeguards humanity and is based on the facts as we can discover them through science and reason?

    The Watchtower again betrays sweeping pig-ignorance of the human condition, always taking advantage of the past secular progress and always condemning other religions that held us back in the past, never acknowledging how they themselves have done so and continue to do so.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    I believe that, if the Watchtower Society had its way, they would create another Dark Ages that could last much longer, and be much worse than, the first Dark Ages. Don't believe me? Just take a look at all the science flubups and mysticism the Asleep! magazine promotes. Take a look at some of the blatantly wrong assertions they have come up with (the most blatant was that donating for littera-trash twice is not double donating).

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    They always say something along the lines of:

    "Granted, science has made some progress in the areas of medicine. But we still grow old and die, and get cancer and other diseases."

    Well gee, look at that! I never noticed! Science hasn't solved cancer yet - I guess Joe Hobo is the true god! Oh wait, Joe Hobo hasn't done JACK FUCKING SHIT for mankind in the last 2000 years.

    "Oh, well that's becuase he has to uphold his sovereignty."

    So Joe Hobo subjects mankind to unspeakable misery and torment just to stroke his own massive fucking ego? Makes me absolutely LIVID.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    I dare say, however, that the religious community offers no insight capable of solving these problems.

    I do. Jehovah clearly wanted to allow about 6000 years of man's self-rule experiments influenced by Satan. That would contrast with the millennium which would be one religion and government under Christ following God's specific rules for the entire world. Then on Judgment Day based upon that collection experience of mankind, people would be judged.

    So SOLVING some of these issues was never the case. The nicest prophets died and suffered along with the rest of imperfect mankind. The SOLUTION to all these problems will be the end of them when everything is restored per God's wishes and Satan and his followers have been destroyed.

    So what is here is just temporary and tolerated. There won't even be two sexes after the world reaches zero population growth after Judgment Day, but every human will be more like the angels, androgynous with both sexes. There will be no marriage, no need for families any more since there will be no children needing to be born.

    What we see here is tolerated only temporarily.

    JC

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