by CatholicGuy 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
A rather interesting article on the issue of "Soul" and "Eternal Punishment" by a former Bethelite/Gilead graduate. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to read the file.
http://home.att.net/~kguin/Mt1028_soul.PDF
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
A former Gilead graduate? I cannot dispute that although I do doubt it.. but you forgot to mention that Kenneth R Guindon was a former Catholic.
Jehovah's Witnesses used their book let God be true to tear me away from Catholicism.
Mr Kenneth R Guindon's 'scholarly' paper has many invalid arguments.. and is biased toward the Catholic faith which he has returned to.. so of course he now tries to prove the RC teachings are correct.
But we all know that anything can be ‘proved’ in support RC teachings, by RC writings and references and we could argue all day in circles, the Catholic having his ace card of RC writings to quote from. So that is no different than the JWs proof of their teachings by their own books. Yet although I don't believe everything that JWs teach, Mr Guindon's paper has in fact, done the reverse thing and convinced me more that the JWs are right about this one.
So I would also like to add my own comments about the Hell-fire and immortal soul doctrine..
First of all, the bible has been altered to make it appear to support Hell-fire amongst many other false teachings. Before anyone says this cannot happen they should take a look at Jer 8:8.. which proves that we cannot blindly follow the bible because it has been altered by man.
If it happened back then it can and has happened since then. So what are we left with if the bible has been corrupted? How can we tell which is the true word of God and which is not?
If there are apparent contradictions then either we have the wrong interpretation, or there is a mistranslation of the text, or the text itself has been added to or taken away from. Also there is one sure way to weed out the false and it is this:.. God is love. Any doctrine that does not teach that God is love is from the enemy of God.
The hell-fire doctrine goes against the law of the OT which says.. "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life." What this means is that the punishment is like for like..
Therefore, to deserve eternal punishment in Hell-fire, we ourselves, would have had to burnt someone in a hell-fire for eternity.. which is not possible.
In Revelation Hades is thrown into the lake of fire.. yet we are expected to believe that Hades is Hell and the Lake of fire is also Hell!
But then it tells us there that the lake of fire is the second death.. called that, because there is no resurrection from this.. unlike the normal death from which everyone rises. See Rev 20:13-15
Therefore, the Lake of fire is symbolic of *eternal destruction, NOT an eternal life of pain.. called 'death' by those who say we have an immortal soul.
*Note eternal destruction means to stay destroyed forever, never to be brought back. It does not mean being 'destroyed' over and over for eternity, yet somehow never destroyed… which would be a contradiction in itself.
If Hades is Hell and the Lake of fire is also Hell.. would Hell be able to feel the pain of fire by being cast into the Lake? Is Hell alive so that it can suffer pain? It makes no sense.
But if Hades is the grave, then the grave being cast into eternal destruction makes perfect sense and it would mean the end of death forever!
And why is it, that in most translations at Rev 20:14 Hades is not translated as Hell as it is wrongly translated elsewhere in the bible? Could it be to avoid an obvious contradiction (by being cast into the lake of fire) by those who believe this lie?
I also notice that Catholics are unable to understand that the eternal "torment" of Revelation is symbolic of the everlasting reproach to a would-have-been life if it had not been condemned by that judgement..
At first glance the above may be hard to see, but a carnal mind cannot accept this at all.. yet I could not have put it in a simpler way.
But we do not need to study of Revelation to understand this, if we know God, regardless of all the quotes from extra-biblical books and Catholic writers who have invented this doctrine..
God is love and is just. Yet the Hell-fire doctrine paints Him as a spiteful and childish person who takes delight in seeing suffering, for which there would be no other purpose than to hatefully display a spectacle of fear. That spectacle of eternal pain as the angels watch on, would indeed be a deterrent, but worship of God is out of love.
Conforming out of such dread and fear is not worship. It actually turns people away from God, not drawing their heart to Him. I will go further with this and boldly say, with a clean conscience, that if a Christian really believes in Hell-fire he does not really know God!
Don't let pride stop you from knowing God and having a loving relationship with Him. God is not the originator of the Hell doctrine. We must love God with our whole heart, mind and soul.. but how could we do this if the Hell-fire doctrine were true?
So where did the inspiration for the immortal soul doctrine come from?
God had told Adam and Eve that they would die if they eat from the tree, but in contradiction to what God had said, the serpent said.. "You surely will not die." Gen 3:4
Yet Adam and Eve did die as we know.. and satan knew this because he is a lair.. so satan portrays the idea that we don't really die because we have an immortal soul. Then the devil expands on this with the Hell-fire doctrine, to prevent people from being warmly drawn to God, who is love and a just God.
This is a very serious matter because our view of what God is like, will determine how He treats us.. as can be seen in the parable of the ten minas…
Taking it up from Luke 19:20
"Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth."
He did nothing with what the Lord had given him..
Luke 19:21a "I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man."
Can you believe this? He viewed view the Lord as being cruel and hard! And because of this wrong attitude he was afraid of him!
Luke 19:21b "You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow."
He viewed the Lord as being unjust, a cheat , calling him a liar!!!
So because of this…
Luke 19:22 "His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?"
Luke 19:23 "Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I would have collected it with interest?"
The Master is asking why didn’t he at least do something with it.. but instead he hid it away. How sad!
Luke 19:24-26 "Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away."
Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Harsh words indeed from Jesus who judges them by their own words.. their own words that show they viewed him as a "hard man".. and because they did not know God they hid the truth, covered over by a "cloth"..
The outworking of parable of the ten minas is after the 'righteous' and the 'unrighteous' are resurrected.. in order to stand before the Judgement..
Note that the fate of those who are condemned is to be finally dead, not a mythical 'living death' of torment.
John
I certainly doubt that this artikel has been written by a former Gilead student too! The strong hellbelief just prove how little traditional christians read the bible and how little they know the OT. It keep on puzzle me that a few verses in the bible have growed into such a strong belief, got to be satan behind it. I'm afraid we will never get the traditionals to face their errors on these issues, when a man dies he's freed from sin, he paid his inherited curse by this life. Incredibel how people believe the torment goes on in the afterlife :-).
Great post jed459 *S*
Ken Guindon graduated from Gilead in the sixties. He had been a Bethelite for 4 years before then.
Jed459 writes:
"So what are we left with if the bible has been corrupted? How can we tell which is the true word of God and which is not?"
I won't take up the challenge here. If Jed can choose which texts to decide are true and which are not there's no point to spend time discussing this. I think, rather, that he has admitted that if one accepts all the Bible as authoritative he has lost the argument.
BTW, I realize that most JWs (and those who still have retained JW thinking on these subjects) react emotionally on this subject. Thoughtful Christian belief on this subject is a far cry from the way it is represented in WT literature. For starters, I recommend the article by Peter Kreeft on the problem of evil:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0019.html
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
I support CatholicGuy on this, no surprise to those who know I'm Catholic. That Jesus teaches there is a hell is without question. Hell is not inconsistent with the Love of God, but rather proves his love. Hell is simply existence without being able to access the love of God. In hell one is given over entirely to self. We are incapable of love without God. Those in hell have no desire to be with God. They chooose to be there.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
CatholicGuy,
If Jed can choose which texts to decide are true and which are not there's no point to spend time discussing this. I think, rather, that he has admitted that if one accepts all the Bible as authoritative he has lost the argument.
No, I have not lost the argument and that is plainly a dismissive remark. Therefore, I will answer in a no-nonsense non-dismissive way.
The reason why we have to choose, is because an apostate church copied, translated, and canonized it in the first place. Hell-fire was put into the bible to frighten people into believing by a church (who have also taught purgatory for the same reason), who murdered and tortured anyone who did not agree with them. Is this right or not? Therefore, that church by doing the very opposite to what Christ taught, was/is an apostate church.. "by their fruits you will recognize them." It is the spirit of that apostasy I speak against, not you personally.
The way we decide is by the love God has put in our heart, by the Holy Spirit. If any doctrine denies that God is love it is a false doctrine. I do not just pick nice things and reject any warnings but this is done in all honesty. And honesty compels me to not accept things that go against the Spirit of God. Honesty also compels me to accept that there is not one translation of the bible that is translated as it was intended to be, so we have no choice but to rely on God’s Spirit more.
Are you saying that the bible has not been mistranslated at all? Is this a mistranslation then, or does it not ring true? Jeremiah 8:8 “How can you say, “we are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?”
I am not saying that non of the bible is true.. and as you have seen, I have quoted several bible verses to prove that Hell-fire is not true. Hey, but there can be more.. then what would you do with the contradictions?
If you believe in Hell-fire, that is between you and Him, likewise it is between Him and me who understands that God is love and that such a thing as torturing someone in a fire.. is not in the heart of God.
Jeremiah 7:31 NKJ "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the son of Hinom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart. " What is the Spirit saying there? Is there any connection?
Hell has been translated from..
Gehenna,
Tartarus,
Hades,
Sheol (which is Hebrew for Hades).. which means the grave. Is that not true?
Are there any more words (mis)translated as Hell I wonder? Funny how three (or four) totally different words have all been mistranslated into Hell.. when those words were not written to mean that at all. And yes, there are other places where God’s wrath is described as being like a fire.. but Hell believers not able to see the symbolic because of their hard hearts, have translated it as though it is a fire literally.
Have I lost the argument? If I am wrong, rather than being dismissive try me with scripture then.
John.
John,
You have brought up many subjects (canon of Scripture, authenticity of text, translation and interpretation of terms, reconciling a loving God with punishment, etc., etc.) For time reasons I will only deal with one. First, let me say that I believe when Jesus spoke of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the afterlife I believe he had more in mind than annihiliationism. Most JWs I've met think that the traditional concept of hell means devils and pitchforks and eternal worms and literal fire, etc. That is not true. Some descriptions are from popular myth. The ones from Scripture are to be understood metaphorically.
The Eastern Church has developed a theology that can be termed the "river of fire." Who receives this "fire"? Everyone. Remember, Scripture refers to God as a "consuming fire." It also refers to our works being tested by fire. This link gives the essence of this understanding of the "river of fire":
http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Nov98/RiverFire6.htm
We all experience this fire but our reactions to it are different.
CatholicGuy
not my webpage but a favorite:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM
Hi Catholicguy,
http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Nov98/RiverFire6.htm
I had a look at that link and found that in essence, it is saying similar things to what I have been saying, that God is love.. but also some parts of it are plainly unscriptural, for instance: "Love.. never reproves anyone" because God does reprove those who He loves. Love does not always mean being nice to people but looks to their best interests.
Also Jesus who was the ultimate manifestation of love when here on the earth, reproved people many times.. but unlike us could see their hearts and knows their fate. Matt 23:33 ("hell" = Gehenna = lake of fire).
Also, there is a difference between God’s wrath which is like fire, and His love which is also like a fire. Or is there? For the individual who receives either (or both) in this life there can be a difference.. in the way he sees it.. as you said.. but after this life there certainly is a difference if he is condemned to the lake of fire, which does not mean the continuing of anything for that person, because death and the grave which are inanimate things, are to go there also to be done away with, never to appear again.
You said..
Some descriptions are from popular myth…Gone are the days when we saw the preaching of ‘fire and brimstone’ in almost every church and on the street corner, yet it is still taught in some places as a literal place of torment, or at least people take it as literal. But as you said yourself,
The (descriptions) from Scripture are to be understood metaphorically.Another thing..
..let me say that I believe when Jesus spoke of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the afterlife I believe he had more in mind than annihiliationism.Yes, there will be a day of judgement and there will be "weeping" (disappointment) and "gnashing of teeth" (anger over their fate) but where I differ from many is that I don’t believe we have an immortal soul. The immortal soul doctrine has caused people to take the symbolic lake of fire as being a literal fire of torment, because they believe they are immortal.
God put the concept of eternal life in the heart of man in the first place, because this is how it was meant to be in the beginning.. but satan uses this difficulty to accept that we could go into nonexistence to support the idea that we can be tortured forever.
John
