Bible Contradiction: Passing God's Test

by JosephAlward 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    The Bible contradicts itself in the matter of God's omniscience. The author of Deuteronomy says that God has to perform a test to learn if one of his chosen people love him:

    1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deuteronomy 13:1-3)

    But, isn't this ridiculous? Why would an all-knowing god have to perform a test to learn something? Why would he have to send false prophets to learn how faithful you are? Doesn't the god described in the Bible already know all there is to know? If so, then how could the god of the Bible not know what one of his creations is thinking, feeling, or believing? How could he not already know before any test whether someone loves him? Isn't the Deuteronomy passage at complete odds with what most Christians and Jehovah Witnesses believe about their god? Is not the description by the author of the book of John more in line what the faithful adhere to? Here is what that writer said:

    "Now we can see that you know all things (John 16:30)...Lord, thou knowest all things" (John 21:17)

    The two authors could not both have been correct; either Deuteronomy is wrong about God sending false prophets to test us, or else John is wrong about God knowing all things, or else both are wrong. Either way, there is an error in the Bible and believers in the Bible really have no idea what to believe for sure: Is does God have to perform tests to learn something, or not?

    With such confusion in the Bible, how can any rational person justify basing their faith and salvation on it?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    ill take a crack at this.

    sure, god could just look into everyones heart and see who was good and bad. he could even just knock folks off before they have a chance to actually do anything very bad, just as a pre-emptive strike. he would be in his right to do so, as an omniscient being. (putting aside determinism vs free will arguments for the moment.) however, it would not seem very fair to us as observers and would not teach us anything. how much better to provide circumstances whereby the traits that god alone can see become clearly evident to human observers. then when god acts, he will appear more just and less arbitrary.

    also, i think the two reference in John were poor choices to show the bible teaching of omniscience. both are in reference to jesus and you are therefore introducing a whole can of trinitarian rationalization by using them. and the context of both statements is in reference to specific knowledge and does not clearly infer omniscience in the sense required to show a contradiction. remember that the deutoronomy scripture implies limited knowledge not of motive, but of decision and action. a corresponding scripture showing full knowledge of future decisions and actions is needed.

    mox

  • Grout
    Grout

    I consider that the doctrine of free will requires that God not exercise "prior restraint", so to speak. Even a person inclined to good may choose to do evil, and vice versa. So even an omnicient God would have to wait to see what we do before judging us for it.

    If you really want to point out the ridiculousness of the Bible, you should highlight the places where free will is implicitly denied. For example, why are innocent children killed along with populations of (presumably responsible) adults in acts of divine judgement, not to mention Israel's many wars?

    --
    Chip Salzenberg: Free-Floating Agent of Chaos

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Joe,

    I'll take a crack at this one too. God does test, but the results of these tests are not to inform God of our hearts intentions, but rather to inform US of where our heart truly lies.

    Take the sacraficing of Issac by Abraham. God already knew what Abe was gonna do, but Abe didn't know the depth of his faith. It was also to stand witness that the sacrafice that God would NOT require of man, he did sacrafice himself.

    So if God is testing Israel to see where their hearts lie, the results of that test are for Israel, God already knows.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Moxy argues that God’s false prophet “test” in Deuteronomy gives man a chance to become aware of his bad traits, so that he might better understand the reasons for whatever punishments God might administer. I will address the issue of God making man aware of himself and his relationship to God at the end of this post.

    For now, I will note that the point in contention is not whether God should “teach us anything,” as Moxy seems to suggest, but rather whether God needs to be taught anything. The main point I was making is that Deuteronomy says explicitly that God designed the false-prophet test so God might “find out” whether his people love him. It is God who is finding out something in this verse, not man.

    Thus, we’re presented with the seeming absurdity of an infinitely powerful and knowledgeable god who has to make an effort to “find out” something; he has to make a test. Does not the god of the Bible--the god most Christians and Jehovah Witnesses believe in--already know what's in everyone's mind at all times? This is what makes the Deuteronomy verse nonsensical.

    But, nonsense is not the same as error, which is what I’m trying to demonstrate here. The error comes when we compare what Deuteronomy is saying with what is said elsewhere in the Bible. I’ve cited two verses in John in which Jesus is said to know all things, but Moxy believes there are two problems with this.

    First, he notes that John speaks of Jesus, not God. I find this objection very hard to comprehend; surely, if one can show that the Bible teaches that Jesus knows all things, then that is the same as showing that the Bible teaches that God, the father of Jesus, knows all things, too.

    Moxy’s second objection is that John is not really saying that Jesus knows all things; he’s only saying that Jesus knows all things within a “specific knowledge” area. I don’t know what area of specific knowledge Moxy has in mind, but nowhere does John give any indication that he didn’t really mean “all” when he said “all.” What clue is given by John that would tell the readers that they should not think that the disciples thought Jesus knew all there was to know about everything? And why should clues be necessary, anyway; if John was truly inspired by God to write those words, God would have known that they would misleading to some, so he never would have let John write those words. Thus, if "all" doesn't really mean "all," John was probably not inspired by God.

    In any case, even if Moxy shows evidence that John had only a “specific knowledge” area in mind—and not literally “all” things, what we are talking about here is whether God would have to use the false-prophet test to find out what people thought of God—whether they loved him with all their heart and soul, or not. Well, Psalm makes it clear that God does know the thoughts of man:

    “The LORD knows the thoughts of man” (Psalm 94:11)

    Thus, if we can believe what is said in Psalm, it makes no sense for Deuteronomy to speak of God testing man to learn his thoughts. Or, if we cannot believe what Psalm says, then which parts of the Bible can we believe, and how will we know?

    Now, coming back to the point I said I’d defer until the end, a point which is not really related to the issue of whether John or Psalm contradicts Deuteronomy: Moxy speaks of what is reasonable for God to do. Is it not less arbitrary of God to let man become aware of his bad traits before they’re punished, he muses?

    I agree that this, indeed, makes more sense and seems more reasonable than the alternative, which is for this god to smite dead the transgressors without warning. However, if one is going to use the “what makes more sense” argument in this case, it proves to be a double-edged sword which cuts apart the argument. Wouldn’t it make even more sense for the allegedly all-powerful god just to embed into the DNA of all of his living creations a perfect knowledge of what it takes to be whatever it is that God wants man to be? He allegedly had—and has—the power to do this. If he had done this, he wouldn’t have needed a Bible; everyone would know instinctively what to do--through their DNA, by their very nature--to please God, and they would have the god-given ability to do it, and God could have made it impossible for them not to do it.

    Yeru notes that Abraham didn't know the depth of his faith, so God had to test him, but none of this would have been necessary if God had just done what he had the power to do right from the beginning of creation: embed into the DNA of man the instinctive awareness and certain knowledge of God's teachings, and the infinite faith to go with it. God had the power to do it, but he didn't; that's just one of the reasons why I don't believe the god of the Bible ever existed.

    The fact that the god of the Bible didn’t do this and instead deliberately created a man which would forever be displeasing him, instead of a man which would eternally please him, is strong evidence that the all-powerful god of the Bible never existed, or if he did, he is a very perverse god indeed.

    Of course, there will be those who say that mere mortal man cannot know the mind of any god, and that the mysterious ways of the god--and the reasons he authored such a confusing bible--will be made clear to those few faithful who meet with Jesus in heaven.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    i like your points regarding the deuteronomy passage. (btw, i hope you realize im more or less playing devils advocate with you here.) i agree that the wording here does indeed appear to remove the possibility of the 'test' being simply for the sake of man.

    regarding the verses in john, i dont think the essay is well served by implicitly opening up trinitarian issues. (let alone the nasty logical conundrum of trying to have TWO independant and self-willed entities, BOTH possessing absolute foreknowledge.) introducing issues with all the theological baggage that the trinity brings with it detracts from the main point.
    both verses in john are reporting the speech of jesus' disciples and neither is in the context of revealing doctrine. even apologists usually agree that bible writers tend to throw around unqualified absolute terms like 'all the world' and 'every man' a little loosely. i find the context of both of these verses to be a little too colloquial to clearly dismiss a less than absolute meaning to the word 'all.' i would imagine the nature of the contradiction would be best explained with a clear and corresponding passage to deuteronomy. one verse in effect saying 'i know what everyone will do' and the other 'hang on, i want to see what you will do.' my first choice would have been isa 46:10, 'I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' others might come to mind on further research.

    it also seems difficult to present this essay without directly dealing with the issue of foreknowledge and determinism. since this is one of the most intractably difficult questions of theology, loaded down with volumes of extra-biblical commentary, i would imagine you would try not to introduce any more of the topic than absolutely nessecary to support the conclusion. i will likewise carefully avoid treading down that dark and twisted road in this context.

    mox

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Moxy,

    Thanks for finding the Isaiah passage for me; I was looking for it the other night. I was going to use it instead of the John verses, which I agree are somewhat ambiguous, but I've since settled on a verse in Mark which seems less vulnerable to your devil's advocacy:

    "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you.” (Mark 14:36)

    Thus, it is possible for God to know the present thoughts of men, and those thoughts would include thoughts which show the extent of man's love for God. Thus, if Mark is right, then the Deuteronomy false-prophet test is ridiculous, and the Deuteronomy author was probably wrong. Otherwise, either Mark is wrong, or both of them are. Either way, the Bible is once again in error.

    Now, in regard to the interesting question of determinism versus free will: I don't believe that one has to tackle this question to present the false-prophet argument. The question of foreknowledge does not become an issue in my argument, because I'm speaking of God knowing the present--whether man loves God with all his heart and soul right now, not about God's knowing what man will do in the future.

    On another point you made: I agree with you about the colloquial use of the word "all." I spent quite some time on another list last year debating this very point with another skeptic; you will find an argument about God's omniscience and his foreknowledge and how the word "all" enters into the debate at

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/is_god_omniscient.html

    Finally, let me close with a comment about free will. The Mark 14 verse above also allows God to know the future, and therefore prevent man from exercising free will. The question I've raised elsewhere is, Does God exercise his right and power to know all of the future? I addressed this issue at some length in the article noted above.

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    i like the 'all' essay here.

    i have to chuckle at the mark verse with its blanket statement that obviously cannot be taken too far without running into other problems.

    i enjoy determinism arguments, but just dont have the energy for them right now. something about the intellectual vacancy of the WTs 'selective foreknowledge' teaching tends to leave me emotionally taxed after too much contemplation.
    does the deuteronomy verse describe god wanting to know what a person feels right now or what a person will do based on what he feels? and is there really a difference? is the expression 'god is testing you' causative or passive? (this type of thinking comes up often in WT exegesis. i dont actually know if its used as often outside of WT.) these are just some of the tangled roads down which i see this argument going.

    i wonder now if a much better contradictory verse to deuteronomy 13, taking a different tack altogeter, isnt the oft-used james 1:13 'When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.' certainly deception is an 'evil' thing, isnt it?

    in the end, im sure we'd both agree that this 'test' verse is classic, self-serving D-style literature: 'anything anyone says to you that disagrees with the priesthood is wrong by definition.' and should probably be viewed as such before (or while) embarking on long philosophical discussions about its ramifications as doctrine.

    mox

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Moxy writes, "i wonder now if a much better contradictory verse to deuteronomy 13, taking a different tack altogeter, isnt the oft-used james 1:13 'When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.' certainly deception is an 'evil' thing, isnt it?"

    I agree that James 1:13 directly contradicts Deuteronomy 13; the former says God does not test man, but Deuteronomy said he did test man.

    The Greek word peirazo (tempt)used in James is described in the concordance this way:

    To inflict evils upon one in order to prove his
    character and the steadfastness of his faith; to try whether a thing can be done; to try, make trial of, test... for the purpose of ascertaining… or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself; to put to the proof his feelings or judgments; to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin; to solicit to sin, to tempt

    This is exactly what the Lord does with his false prophet test (temptation).

    The contrast of Deuteronomy and James which Moxy noted is more stark than the ones I've suggested, and provides the best argument for contradiction.

    Thus, once again, we see that the Bible seriously contradicts itself.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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