The idenity of God

by jed459 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jed459
    jed459

    Trinity? An unprejudiced independent view.

    I know this is going to find some opposition from Trinitarians and none Trinitarians alike, but please consider my humble efforts because I do believe this is the truth.

    Please consider this carefully…

    The Father is the mind from where the Word is spoken.. The breath is the Holy Spirit and by the Word all things were created. (John 1:3)

    Psalm 33:6 (NKJ) "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the hosts of them by the breath of his mouth." See also Psalm 33:9 (there may be others somewhere).

    This is not the Trinity (Nicene creed). Is a word equal to the breath? Is the breath equal to the mind? Obviously not, but for there to be a word there has to be breath and a mind. The above bible verse uses this fact to explain how God created everything.

    God is spirit so the Father does not have a body, though sometimes describes himself in that way to explain things to us. He is the invisible God and no-one can be in his very presence literally, where the laws of physics do not apply, because he is beyond space and time, matter and energy, which are all His creation. (Therefore, the Father has never literally been on this earth but the angels represented Him.) Gal 3:19, Gen 21:17, Gen 22:15,16, Ex 3:2,16, Deut 4:11,12, Judges 6:12,15,16,20,23, John 1:18, John 6:46, 1John 4:12, 1Tim 1:17, Rom 1:20, Heb 11:27.

    We cannot see this by looking at things in a physical way, like you are you and I am me. Those concepts of 'you' and 'me' are of this universe.. but the Father does not dwell in such. If we can get away from seeing things like that, then God is a spirit (not a spirit creature)... then the Word and the Holy Spirit (called “he” because of carrying the personality) are in a spiritual sense God.. but not three tangible beings, like you, me and someone else.. nor are they equal. Words carry the meaning of what is in the mind but they are not the total of the mind.. it’s the same with God who is spirit, not a creature.

    God is the living God and has "breath" (Holy Spirit) and the Word to speak… they are all of God who is spirit, having the same divine nature. The Logos became flesh by being born in Jesus, "the only begotten Son".. by Holy Spirit, as was signified by what the angel said to Mary at his conception and by the name Emmanuel… (something that JWs tend to skip around).

    These are not equal as Jesus plainly said, and God is not the Nicene Trinity but they took the truth and mixed in a Pagan corruption of it. The result of that mix with the Pagan, was is doctrine that’s claimed as a mystery that no-one can understand.

    Contrary to the Trinity, Jesus said that his father is greater than he is and that he cannot do anything but what the Father wants him to do. ( John 14:28 John 8:28,29,42 ) There cannot be any words without the breath or the mind to cause it: likewise with God, the Word can only do what the Father wants him to do.

    In times past, God spoke through angels but now speaks to us through the Son, who has experienced human life on earth. The angels represented God who is invisible (compare Ex 3:2-4) and spoke on behalf of the invisible God, but in the case of Jesus, the Word was not in an angelic creature because the Logos was "made flesh" or better translated, dwelt in flesh.. in the perfect human called Jesus.. the last Adam.

    The lack of a definite article at John 1:1 does not indicate that the Word was “a god” because the Word is not a tangible being like the angels are. Note John 1:2 repeats again that the Word "was with God in the beginning."

    The “beginning” was ‘before’ (for want of a better word) time began, because time itself is part of the creation God created by the Word. There is/was eternity ‘before’ time began.. so the Word has always been with the invisible God and is also spirit. Even Jesus’ own words are spirit, for they are the same Word that dwelt in Jesus as a man. John 6:63 "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."

    Both the Holy Spirit and the Word represent the Father, and if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father ( John 14:9), but they are not the whole of the invisible God who is beyond the universe, yet extends Himself into it. So the Son is the very (spiritual) representation of his father but not Him entirely, and the Word was in Jesus by the Holy Spirit, the breath of God. (compare John 20:21,22 for “breath”)

    I know people like JWs don't see it this way, nor do hardened Trinitarians but I do believe this is the truth. The Word was the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15,16).. because the Logos is born from the Father.. like your words originate from your mind (and usually have a consequence); likewise when God created, it was by the Word that he did it.. "God said, “let there be light" and there was light.

    All things came into existence by the Word, it does not say all other things apart from the Word, but all things. The Word was with the Father "in the beginning" and always has been, because God dwells in eternity. If God were mute there would be no creation but because God can speak, there is the creation.

    The problem with religious pride and dogma is that as a defense, the objections are there well in advance of taking the time to look at the whole. Making this worse is the fact that the bible has been translated by religious slant and even added to, making it appear to teach the Trinity. Yet in the above, I cannot find any genuine contradiction in the bible (without taking bible verses out of context).

    Please consider this with a fresh mind, not one that stops with this or that before you have seen it. Then it all falls into place. Of course I could be wrong about some things.. and will appreciate a greater mind than mine to look at it.

    (This is a re-edit and with emphasis codes put in.)

    John.

  • Bang
    Bang

    jed, you wrote:

    < We cannot see this by looking at things in a physical way, like you are you and I am me. >
    Though your using the description of God as a person with a mind, speech and breath.

    The Trinity agree so completely that they are God, but it's hard to understand such love, such agreement. The Lord says "Let us" in reference to God. They are together and the love they have for each other is perfect.

    "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"
    'If you see how I am you have also seen how the Father is, so why do you need to see Him instead of me. He's the same as me.'

    Bang

  • jed459
    jed459
    Though your using the description of God as a person with a mind, speech and breath.


    Are you saying that God does not have a mind, nor breath, nor speech? Sorry, I misunderstood you there.. "Though" hmmm.. well God is spirit.. but He has a mind, breath, and the ability to speak through the Word.. God is spirit.. in fact Jesus' own words are spirit.. because he had the Logos in him and this is what he spoke.. the Word.

    'If you see how I am you have also seen how the Father is, so why do you need to see Him instead of me. He's the same as me.'

    You obviously have not studied what I wrote.. try again. But "same as" is not the same as 'as'..anyway. Sigh.. the english language is not good enough!

    By the way, the "let us" is Elohim which is plural.. which does not contradict what I said on that post.. but that's another subject on it's own.. and I intend to deal with this when I have a clearer understanding of it.. but I can see already that it could cause some people a headache!

    John

  • Bang
    Bang

    jed,
    I'm not saying that God does not have a mind, nor breath, nor speech, just that, that too is seeing things in a physical way.

    I think I know what your saying, but my view is slightly different. I understand God as three people in agreement, not just one person with three attributes, though the view of one person with three attributes is very close because neglecting my own understanding I find that to be almost the same.

    As with christian marriage, there are three - two people and God. He is not in the position of 'other', as in blessing from afar, but with them in the marriage. And to "let no man rend asunder that which God has joined" includes with Himself.

    Imagine speaking to a married christian person who is so perfectly in love and agreement with their partner, and God, that you could in a way be speaking to either of them, just the same, though the person you are speaking to is an 'individual' so to speak; - or imagine speaking to either a father or son who work and live together and are so content with one another, having the same spirit, both together and individually, the spirit being the friend of each, that you could be speaking to either of them, the same things in the same way, or your heart could even converse with the same spirit.

    So then, imagine talking to one person of God, who is in perfect love with God, friends of each, yet also an 'individual' person so to speak, with "light in Himself".
    Did you know that trinitarians understand God in a manner sort of like that ?

    Bang

  • jed459
    jed459

    Hi Bang,

    I'm not saying that God does not have a mind, nor breath, nor speech, just that, that too is seeing things in a physical way.

    God often speaks of himself as having physical attributes to explain things to us. Psalm 33:6,9 is no acception to this but shows the attributes by which the universe was created.. through the Word. Obviously, where God dwells there cannot be literal breath or words that need physical air to carry them.. but we have the Holy Spirit and the Word, of God who is spirit.

    I think I know what your saying, but my view is slightly different. I understand God as three people in agreement, not just one person with three attributes, though the view of one person with three attributes is very close because neglecting my own understanding I find that to be almost the same.

    Perhaps we do have a similar view but from a different angle. Which is a better understanding than the Nicene creed Trinity which confuses things. Have you ever read it? They tell us its a mystery that no-one can understand, so why is it there? To confuse us.

    But God is not three people but one person. I see the Spirit and the Word like extentions of the same one person, by which He communicates to us, in the universe that He has created by them.

  • Bang
    Bang

    Hi jed,
    The Nicene creed isn't that hard to follow, but, as with my description above, it's certainly a mystery and very hard to say in words. The very notion of spirit is a mystery - as I described a father and son being so content with one another, in loving agreement, and having the same spirit, we could converse with the father or the son, or with the spirit they share and have individually. The Spirit is the comforting friend who yearns for God within our hearts and speaks to the Father for us, beyond words.

    I see the Spirit and the Word like extentions of the same one person
    That's pretty much the trinitarian view, it's just that the three are together in that way also.

    Bang

  • jed459
    jed459

    Hi Bang,

    You are the very first person I have heard say that the Nicene creed isn't hard to follow. I wonder if perhaps your view is not the same as the Nicene creed.. The creed is full of circular contradictions that don't make any logical sense at all.

    If it makes some symbolic sense instead of logical sense, its because there is some truth to the concept.. but its not as the Nicene creed says.. The Nicene creed confuses and boggles the mind by playing circular tricks on the mind to support itself. It uses confusion to support confusion and in my opinion is demonic. God is not a God of confusion.

    The Nicene creed says they are equal.. but Jesus plainly says they are not equal. There is no evidence that the early Christians believed the Nicene Trinity and we have to remember that the bible was canonized by the church of Rome, who showed by their actions that they were apostate. (compare Jer 8:8)

    Yet if we look at some places in the bible, the Greek plainly shows that the bible has been deliberately mistranslated to make it appear to teach the Nicene Trinity of three equal persons. For instance, look at the explanation of Philippians 2:6 on the second post on.. http://pub53.ezboard.com/ftruthseekers91266frm3.showMessage?topicID=8.topic

    The Spirit is called a "he" because the Spirit carries the same personality as the whole of God, not because of being a person in 'his'/its own right.. yet the Nicene Trinity does not make this clear at all, but confuses it.

    The creed says that the Spirit is the third person of the Trinity.. but even this is the wrong way round, because the Spirit always comes before the Word.. the Word cannot be without the Spirit or 'breath' to cause it. Therefore the Spirit is greater than the Word.. and as Jesus said, we can be forgiven if we speak against the Son, but we will not be forgiven if we blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. "blaspheme" of course being a deliberate act.

    As I said at the outset, the Nicene creed was a mix with a Pagan corruption of the concept of the Father-Spirit-Son being God... which after all, is a description of the whole of God, not three persons.

    Yet when all is said and done, if we really have the love of God by the Spirit of God, we have the Word in us and we are in the faith.. even if we don't have all our doctrines right. :)

    Even if the mind is confused, God can deal with the heart directly and put His Spirit there.. but the Nicene Trinity does make it more difficult to understand the identity of God in our mind.

    John

  • Bang
    Bang

    Hi jed,
    The creed isn't a waste because it mightn't get you to fully understand God - not understanding God doesn't mean He's a God of confusion. You'll probably find that the church needed to put down what guidelines they were able to when called on to do it, because as time progressed people were going off on strange tangents - who can deny that, they still do. It's hard to explain in words what you know in spirit so to speak, and christians didn't really try much, without being pressed by a reason for it.

    Also, the Spirit maybe the first person, but usually we don't percieve what we know until told, perhaps by Christ, after imagining another person, He, the Father - so we say the third person - but not third as in next in command, certainly not.

    The Spirit is called a "he" because the Spirit carries the same personality as the whole of God, not because of being a person in 'his'/its own right.. yet the Nicene Trinity does not make this clear at all, but confuses it.
    Maybe the Nicene creed doesn't agree with your view of God, but for a billion catholics it seems to fit with how they feel.

    Bang

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Read Thomas Aquinas on the issue.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

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