Making God's Commands Arbitrary

by milligal 9 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  milligal

  There's a philosophical theology behind the premise that people who blindly obey (a.k.a. 'sheeplike') have no inner sense of morality or ethics. Take for exampe the idea of shunning, JW's shun those that they are told to shun. My mother-in-law shuns her son with a vengence, however she does not shun her baptised sister who openly lives with a man she is not married to, she drinks , does drugs...you get the picture, the sister is not df'd so my mother-in-law invites her to all family gatherings. My husband is df'd and is shunned to the most extreme extent possible.

  So I would ask: is it really the behavior that is hated? Isn't it true that JW's cannot claim allegiance to a set of morals but rather allegiance to what they are taught (told)? If they were told that God says it's right to lie and wrong to tell the truth-then they would act on that. God's commands are in effect arbitrary to them. What God 'says' doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if it's ethical, if it's morally consistent, all that matters is that they precieve it as God's will and from there they do exactly what they are commanded. This is a social dilema and about three steps away from fundamentalist terrorism...
• 

  kzjw

  Great anology...It is what they are told! Just look at the Tacoma Parking scandal. I asked my wife if I were to rent a facility to do a show, and knew that the contract stated you couldn't charge for parking, would she think it was wrong -- She said of course! Then I filled in the blanks of the Tacoma parking scandal, and she froze for a moment, then said they don't charge for parking so she wouldn't know. I said but they openly lied about thier intentions and then threatened to look to another city if thier efforts were hampered. She didn't say it was OK for them to lie, but she didn't say it was wrong either. In fact anytime I say that I know it's OK for them to lie about certain things, she never denies it!
• 

  TD

  ....is it really the behavior that is hated? Isn't it true that JW's cannot claim allegiance to a set of morals but rather allegiance to what they are taught (told)? If they were told that God says it's right to lie and wrong to tell the truth-then they would act on that. God's commands are in effect arbitrary to them.

  I've noticed the same thing. Obedience to rules -- Lost when it comes to the morals upon which the rules are allegedly based.

  JW's are told, for example that it is wrong to buy a lottery ticket. --So they don't. But I've never yet observed a JW refuse to accept a lottery ticket if it is presented to them as a gift from someone else.
• 

  Jeremy C

  This is why people who know a lot about the Bible very rarely convert to the Watchtower. One of the first things they spot in the organization is the legalistic / Talmudic approach to Christianity on which salvation is based. Those who have never educated themselves in the Bible and who are only nominal church members often fall for the faulty logic and sophomoric reasoning in the Society's publications.

  I have also noted that people with large guilt complexes often join legalistic / authoritarian religions. People who have lived very troubled or sordid lives often go through a change where their internal pendulum swings in the opposite direction. They shift from being loose and licentious to being stern, judgemental, and devoted to religious dogmaticism.

  I think that the average JW (despite giving up freedoms of every kind) feels a sense of security and well-being in dutifully following religious rules, regulations, and programmed activity. Much like the first-century Jews, they feel that spiritual purity is linked with following many rules and regulations. They feel that God's favor will only come through following a Talmudic, systemized form of worship despite what their true heart condition might be.
• 

  milligal

  I actually wrote my mother-in-law a letter over this issue and never received a response other than the grapevine 'how dare I' gossip and that she was offended. She never replied to my allegations that the way she carried out her faith was not based on her own devotion to a moral standard but a reaction to social pressure. I took her silence as her inability to defend her actions.

  In every argument there has to be an observation of some consistency-maybe that is where the conversation with active witnesses comes to a halt, they refuse to be consistent so it is impossible to take a discussion anywhere with them.
• 

  amicus

  This is why people who know a lot about the Bible very rarely convert to the Watchtower. One of the first things they spot in the organization is the legalistic / Talmudic approach to Christianity on which salvation is based. Those who have never educated themselves in the Bible and who are only nominal church members often fall for the faulty logic and sophomoric reasoning in the Society's publications. "I have also noted that people with large guilt complexes often join legalistic / authoritarian religions. People who have lived very troubled or sordid lives often go through a change where their internal pendulum swings in the opposite direction. They shift from being loose and licentious to being stern, judgemental, and devoted to religious dogmaticism. I think that the average JW (despite giving up freedoms of every kind) feels a sense of security and well-being in dutifully following religious rules, regulations, and programmed activity. Much like the first-century Jews, they feel that spiritual purity is linked with following many rules and regulations. They feel that God's favor will only come through following a Talmudic, systemized form of worship despite what their true heart condition might be."

  I had to read this twice to get it, but you pretty much summed up my generation. I converted in early 1970 with many of my friends, but we were mostly young radicals. Young radicals raised by authoritarian parents, schools etc. We were hardcore for a few years, but eventually went full circle and realized this "Grand Revelation" was just more of the same bs.
• 

  Carlos_Helms

  Great observation, Amicus.
  
  Despite what the adherent believes are his own thoughts, his thought processes must dovetail perfectly with the institution's in order to be accepted. Institutional thought processes, institutional conscience. All this while believing with all his heart that he is pleasing to God. The Oracle says so.
  
  In truth, the LAST thing God wants is an automaton.
  
  Milligal, this is the type of gross hypocrisy that Jesus condemned. Curiously, JWs spend there entire lives attempting to adhere to a standard that leads them AWAY from Christ - and nobody in the "brain trust" seems to get it.
  
  Carlos
• 

  amicus

  "Great observation, Amicus.
  
  Despite what the adherent believes are his own thoughts, his thought processes must dovetail perfectly with the institution's in order to be accepted. Institutional thought processes, institutional conscience. All this while believing with all his heart that he is pleasing to God. The Oracle says so.
  
  In truth, the LAST thing God wants is an automaton.
  
  Milligal, this is the type of gross hypocrisy that Jesus condemned. Curiously, JWs spend there entire lives attempting to adhere to a standard that leads them AWAY from Christ - and nobody in the "brain trust" seems to get it.
  
  Carlos" Interestingly enough, possibly out of embarassement, or maybe out of curiosity I later on spent 100's of hours studying this topic. I have spent far more time studying the "scriptures" after I left the WTBTS than I ever spent while one of them. My only "conclusions" are that anyone claiming to represent "the god of the bible today" is full sh**. Anyone predicting bible prophecy is full of sh**. Probably the "New Testament" is mostly full of sh**. The historical record of the Hebrew Scriptures is cool. Too bad the modern Jews never learned what those writings tried to teach them. The collected words of Jesus are most cool. Too bad modern Christians don't follow them. If one has to sum up the message of both it would be something like this, Don't trust Politicians or Religionists. Mine your own business and try your best to ignore the assholes. Oh! Although one has to dig deep, I'm sure there is text that says something like, "If you grow a garden at home, don't waste your time on squash".
• 

  Carmel

  Jeeremy, I think you just offended sophomores! carmel
• 

  WTWizard

  What you have with the Washtowel is two levels of perversion of morals. First, the Bible itself was corrupted twice. First, Paul mistook Jesus' words literally and created problems where none needed to exist. Then the early Catholic church exploited this, interpreting the teachings to fit their purposes. They also edited portions of the Bible, leaving out anything that might blow their illusions and editing other texts.

  On top of that, the Washtowel further altered the Bible. They interpret it as meaning that anyone is wicked, committing all manner of sins, if they are not spending every instant screeching around from door to door placing washtowels and asleeps, and other littera-trash to study from. Every single one of their doctrines is designed to support that work and their illusion that it is the only way that is acceptable. To further this illusion, they edited texts from the Bible that do not support their viewpoint so that they would now support it.

  Stripped of all this mysticism and perversion, morality is actually extremely simple. If one is wicked, it is blatantly obvious to anyone--those are the people that are holding back civilization. And they have to be actively holding back progress--those that are merely "on the fence" are not really holding anyone back, and should be allowed to maintain a neutral position in peace (to illustrate, there are more than 6 billion people that are not contributing in any way to this board, but since none are actually impeding it, that is not really a problem). No one should need a Bible, let alone a washtowel or asleep, to make these decisions.