by D wiltshire 8 Replies latest jw friends
Who are the Superior Authorities in Rom.13:1-8?
Are there any die hard old JWs on this board?
What about Yardirf,YK,Fred, or some other posters whos names I can't remember?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Uhmmm, I've been asleep for a really long time, but I think that the superior authorities are Jehovah and Jesus. You may want to ask an elder.
I believe currently it's the worldly governments.
I wouldn't bother asking the elders, they probably can't remember which way the wind is blowing on this one, either. Just grab a coin, assign "Jah and Jesus" to one side, and "governments to the other, and give it a flip.
Hmmm
Depends on the timeline.
Before 1929--secular governments
1929 until 1962---Jehovah and Jesus
1962 until now--secular governments
Here is the WTS explanation of that flipflop.
The Divine Plan of the Ages (SS-1) 1916 ed., p. 266
"Knowing this to be the purpose of God, neither Jesus nor the apostles interfered with earthly rulers in any way. On the contrary, they taught the Church to submit to these powers, even though they often suffered under their abuse of power. They taught the Church to obey the laws, and to respect those in authority because of their office, even if they were not personally worthy of esteem; to pay their appointed taxes, and, except where they conflicted with God's laws (Acts 4:19; 5:29), to offer no resistance to any established law. (Rom. 13:1-7; Matt. 22:21.) The Lord Jesus and the apostles and the early Church were all law-abiding, though they were separate from, and took no share in, the governments of this world. Though the powers that be, the governments of this world, were ordained or arranged for by God, that manking might gain a needed experience under them, yet the Church, the consecrated ones who aspire to office in the coming Kingdom of God, should neither covet the honors and the emoluments of office in the kingdoms of this world, nor should they oppose these powers."
Proclaimers Book page 147
10 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth
Such progressive understanding was not limited to the early period of their modern-day history. It continues right down to the present. For example, in 1962 there was an adjustment of understanding regarding “the superior authorities” of Romans 13:1-7.
For many years the Bible Students had taught that “the higher powers” (KJ) were Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. Why? In The Watch Towers of June 1 and June 15, 1929, a variety of secular laws were cited, and it was shown that what was permitted in one land was forbidden in another. Attention was also drawn to secular laws that required people to do what God prohibited or that forbade what God commanded his servants to do. Because of their earnest desire to show respect for the supreme authority of God, it seemed to the Bible Students that “the higher powers” must be Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. They still obeyed secular laws, but the emphasis was on obedience to God first. That was an important lesson, one that fortified them during the years of world turmoil that followed. But they did not clearly understand what Romans 13:1-7 was saying.
Years later, a careful reanalysis of the scripture was made, along with its context and its meaning in the light of all the rest of the Bible. As a result, in 1962 it was acknowledged that “the superior authorities” are the secular rulers, but with the help of the New World Translation, the principle of relative subjection was clearly discerned. This did not call for any major change in the attitude of Jehovah’s Witnesses toward the governments of the world, but it did correct their understanding of an important portion of the Scriptures. In the process, there was opportunity for the Witnesses individually to consider carefully whether they were truly living up to their responsibilities toward both God and the secular authorities. This clear understanding of “the superior authorities” has served as a protection to Jehovah’s Witnesses, especially in those lands where surges of nationalism and clamoring for greater freedom have resulted in outbreaks of violence and the formation of new governments.
AND
w72 8/15 501 God Readjusts the Thinking of His People ***
Some persons, however, object to changes in viewpoint, changes in understanding of certain scriptures or procedures. For example, since the 1940’s Jehovah’s witnesses have refused to give or accept blood transfusions, whereas prior to that they did not take this position. Since 1962 they understand the “superior authorities” of Romans 13:1 to be the rulers of worldly governments, whereas up to that time, since 1929, they had held a different viewpoint. Other examples could be cited. Does this show that Jehovah’s witnesses do not have the truth? Does this bring into question the basic principles of their teachings?
Not at all. Jehovah’s witnesses do not claim infallibility. They are being taught by God. (Isa. 54:13) Never will they know all things, but they will continually be learning from the inexhaustible wisdom of God as they walk in his truth.
AND
w67 6/1 333 God Kindly Leads His People Toward Life ***
However, temporarily, from 1929 to 1962, the Witnesses understood that when Paul spoke of the “superior authorities” at Romans 13:1, to whom subjection is due, he had reference to Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. But in 1962 it was convincingly set out that the superior authorities mentioned here are indeed the political rulers of this world. What effect, then, did this better understanding have on God’s people? Well, Jehovah had prepared them for this. It did not place them now in total subjection to political rulers, so as to drop the work that Jehovah through Christ had commanded them to do, but it emphasized that their subjection is relative.
wiltshire
Who are the Superior Authorities in Rom.13:1-8?
They are the rulers/governments/kingdoms of this system of things, whom God is tolerating for the time being. Christians are to cooperate with them, unless by doing so God gets put in second place. The "superior authorities" provide for some measure of order, and prevent total chaos. God requires that we who serve him also be law abiding citizens, because it's not without purpose that his "minister" bears the sword of authority. These "existing authorities" stand "placed" in their relative positions by God by way of being permitted (not created) to govern the earth for the duration of the gentile times, or appointed times of the nations which began with Adams rejection of God's rule and authority.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
So they are not the strong willed Jedi class females....phew thats a relief!
ISP
YAdirf,
How are you so sure?
Maybe Rutherford was right and the superior authorities are really J & JC.
After all nobody can be more superior that those two.
Yeah I know the contexts makes it so very very obvious that it's the Governments, but don't forget Rutherford was used by Jehovah to wrestle control away from apostates in his organization.
Look how he became president and got rid of anybody who stood in his way. It was durring his presidency that they got rid of all false religeous practices that Russel allowed. Even beards went down the tubes.
Could Rutherford been right all a long even though a casual reading of Romans 13 makes it obvious it's the governments?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Wiltshire
This is my impression, the way I see it all. And I know that many will disagree, which of course they have the prerogative to do:
After the death of the apostles, true Christianity fell by the wayside for the most part. But according to the Bible there would be a resurgence, or restoration, in the days of the 7th King. Today we live in the time of that very “king”. I personally believe that such restoration has been in progress, beginning with Russell. But … the restoration of true worship has been an evolving thing. The reason being that God is only in indirect control of its progress. This means that his dedicated, imperfect servants are at the helm of the ship called "Doctrine" ... explaining it as they think best. What I mean by God being in “indirect” control, as opposed to being directly in charge of matters, is that to the degree that his servants are moved by his spirit (a motivation derived from study of the Bible) they are being indirectly controlled by God.
And so neither Russell or Rutherford were divinely inspired (like Daniel was for example), even though they were “used” in the sense of making themselves available for working in the interest of the Bible’s message for mankind. There have been overzealous entries in WT literature, sure, but like I said: “It’s been an evolving thing … this restoration of true worship.”
Rutherford was used by Jehovah to wrestle control away from apostates in his organization.Indirectly so, yes. I see it much like the example of Jacob wrestling with the angel for the sake of obtaining a privilege. Or, an even earlier instance, where Jacob wrangled with Esau for the birthright and the privilege of Jacob being able to say that the Messiah came through HIS line of decent. We notice that in the end, his father, Isaac was satisfied that the way things went, meaning that Jacob had seized the birthright, was the will of Jehovah himself … otherwise it wouldn’t have concluded the way it did. And so we have Rutherford here seizing control of things … in spite of what Russell’s Will said to the contrary. Surprise! So was Isaac, at first. But he got used to the idea. Are you reading me?
Yeah I know the context [of Romans 13] makes it so very, very obvious that [the superior authorities are] the GovernmentsI believe that the flip-flops that we’re aware of regarding the meaning of this text suggests otherwise. Frankly, I would bet that if Rutherford were here to tell his side of why he thought the way he did at THAT time, presenting his side of the debate about its meaning, we all might be surprised what his argumentation might do in the way of making us recheck our thinking that it’s “so very, very obvious”.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Yadirf,
You said:
After the death of the apostles, true Christianity fell by the wayside for the most part. But according to the Bible there would be a resurgence, or restoration, in the days of the 7th King. Today we live in the time of that very “king”. I personally believe that such restoration has been in progress, beginning with Russell.
So by the above quote are you saying the Faithful and Discrete slave has not been alive for almost 2000 years?
But the WT tells us that the slave has been alive for centuries and dispensing food throughout all their existence.
Also:
And so neither Russell or Rutherford were divinely inspired (like Daniel was for example), even though they were “used” in the sense of making themselves available for working in the interest of the Bible’s message for mankind. There have been overzealous entries in WT literature, sure, but like I said: “It’s been an evolving thing … this restoration of true worship.”So if Russell and The Judge were not inspired how did they know for sure that they were, or that the Organization was the only true channel if Jehovah never told them directly?
You can't appoint yourself to be God's Only Channel can you?
Isn't that what can be call a major PRESUMPTION?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
