144,000 symbolism.

by iamthewolf5562 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • iamthewolf5562
    iamthewolf5562

    Ok. I have a question that was never answered for me when I was going to meetings. Humorous answers are appreciated, but if anyone knows the real answer to this, I'd appreciate it, just so my curiousity will shut up.

    The witnesses teach that the book of revelation is a book of symbols. That's how they determined that hell is symbolic of being dead forever and that hell literal doesn't really exist. That's how they got different things to stand for jesus, different world powers, ect. BUT. If it's a book of symbols, then why do they take the number 144,000 people going to heaven as being a literal number?

  • still_in74
    still_in74

    ***

    w049/1pp.30-31QuestionsFromReaders***

    Questions

    FromReaders

    Why

    doJehovah’sWitnessestakethenumber144,000mentionedinthebookofRevelationliterallyandnotsymbolically?

    The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

    After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, whichnomanwasabletonumber, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.

    Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

    Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: "It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter." (TheApocalypseor"TheDayoftheLord," page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: "The case for symbolism is exegetically weak." He added: "It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally."—Revelation:AnExegeticalCommentary, Volume 1, page 474.

    Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about "the thousand years" of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

    The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the "great crowd," also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits." (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a "little flock." (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

    Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29.

  • Robert7
    Robert7

    It's because it's ALL BS, and all a lie!

  • easyreader1970
    easyreader1970

    Yeah, the bull crap I always hear is the same thing. "Well, 144,000 is a specific number!".

    Once again, this is the WBTS picking and choosing parts of the Bible that they want to use to support their craptacular belief system. That's really the only reason that they can offer. It's a bull crap reason but it is their reason.

    er

  • still_in74
    still_in74
    I think the next paragraph states that the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. So I would think you would have to be a Jew to be of the 144,000 not a gentile? what do you think?

    "christendom" correctly reads the 144k as Jewish Christians that would go to Heaven, the other sheep are Gentile Christians. Easy, simple.

    The WTS assign the 144k to annointed JW's by calling them "spiritual Israel" (Jews) - this is how they get around this. The other sheep are an "earthy class" (?) where Freddie got that from I will never know.

  • donny
    donny

    What is interesting is they say the 144,000 number is literal, but the very next part about being from the 12 tribes of Israel is symbolic. The way I see it, either both are literal or both are symbolic. Either way you go, it does not jive with WT teaching.

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    I wrote on this subject , check my posts .

    The number 144000 seems to be a literal number and the number of 12 tribes is literal .

    We interpret the Bible with other related verses of the Bible-Isaiah 28.9-10.

    The number can be counted as it is a fixed number of 144000 great christian menservants ( not a single woman in this number) .

    The other crowd cannot be counted as the other remaining saved people will grow indefinitely in the future in the Paradise.And they are subject to second death in case somebody disobeys. So the number is not fixed .It can change in the eternity. The number of 144000 is unchangeable for ever; they will be gods .

    It is possible that since these 144000 are a tithe which is 1/10 part of Israel ( spiritual one ) we can consider this possibility :

    The great ones of the Old Testament in the number 1 440 000 will be raised at the beginning as well.

    They would be the second special class as they would attain a high perfection closest to those 144000 and would not be subject to the second death for longer time and after them go all other saved christians and their number cannot be counted as the number is not steady already at the beginning after God's Kingdom is established on earth.

    So , we would have :

    Jesus Christ as God + his 144000 menservants as gods = they will never die as they are not subject to the second death. After them there is a class of high servants who are 1 440 000 in number and they will hold high office working for Jesus Christ -King and his 144000 servants -kings. Then we have regular workers in the ministries of the new world government- they cannot be counted at all as their number will be subject to change in urgent case.

    Then we have pagan nations who will be the last category of saved people.

    Read how I understand the resurrection body and the end-time era.

    Jesus Christ and his 144000 men immortal unconditionally for ever - 2011 AD +++++++++++

    2011 AD - 2034 AD - 1 440 000 servants of the Old Testament not subject to the second death in this period only.From 2034 AD forwards they will be subject to death if disobey.

    2011 AD forwards - All other christians subject to death if disobey

    2011 AD - 2012 AD - God's Kingdom to be established 2011 AD - 2012 AD - 2034 AD - God's Kingdom proclaimed to nations on earth.

    2034 AD - 3034 AD - Christ rules for 1000 years with his 144000 servants in the Paradise on earth.

    Check my latest posts on usenet : alt.apocalypse

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    First John heard the (symbolic) number of those sealed, "144,000" from all the tribes of (spiritual/symbolic) Israel. (All of revelation is symbolic.)

    Then John saw a great crowd "which no one can number," "from every nation."

    Contrary to JW teaching, John did not see two groups of people. The number John first "heard" was symbolic of the "great crowd" of people he then "saw."

    That group of people is made up of all God's faithful servants througout time, Jews and Christians. For 12 was not only the number of Israel's tribes, it was also the number of Christ's apostles. Thus 12 X 12 = 144 X 1000 (the number the Bible often uses in reference to a large group of people) = 144,000.

    That's how I see it anyway.

  • Vachi 8 He Is
    Vachi 8 He Is

    I got one. Why does Jesus NEED 144,000 people to help rule over people who supposedly at that time would be purely and solely dubs? I mean everyone on earth is dub and Jesus, his dead-beat daddy and 144,000 newly appointed spirits are going to watch over the people who are going along with the program why? More time wasting? Ok.

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