Fate & Bible Prophecies-what do you think?

DisconnectingDrone

JW's are taught that there is no fate-if fate existed no one would be responsible for what they did?

However, I always thought their explanation of Jehovah selectively looking into the future was fuzzy. Take the prophecy of Cyrus conquering Babylon and freeing the Israelites back home. If you look into the future and predict it-then it means that certain things must happen-in this case there must be someone called Cyrus, Babylon would still be around, the Israelites would still be captives and Cyrus' campaign was a guaranteed success.

Then there is Alexander the Great and his 4 Generals. I mean your not talking about looking at minor things in the future, your looking at some of the pivotal moments in man's history.

I'd like to read your thoughts on fate and prophecies.

thebigdebate

This is one of the reasons that I have a problem with the Bible. There are too many contridictions in it. Lot was a good man, worthy of being saved but he had sex with his daughters because he was drunk? This story is wrong on so many levels. Samson had powers from jehovah because of his long hair and now JW men cant have long hair because Jehovah dont like long hair. Jehovah said that all men had to cut their penis and now he dont care if we do or dont? Noah built an ark and went and got 2 of each animal and after that he had the time to go put the penguins back? Sounds like a bunch of story's

Turkey Sandwich

The prophecy vs. fate, or vs. self-fulfilling prophecy, was one of my issues before I started studying Bible history.

pseudoxristos

Where can I get some of that fungi?

pseudo

JCanon

It is true, Jehovah can look into the future and see what will happen and likewise tell us certain things that we need to know. I think this is done to reassure us. For instance, we know that after the millennium Satan will be let loose and then be destroyed. So this helps us to prepare for that last test and allows us to have hope that we will get eternal life if we pass that test. Jehovah must have known we needed that information.

Further, I believe Jehovah provides certain prophecies so that it demonstrates the power of God to see the future. Even now as so many prophecies are being fulfilled we know God has the power to see into the future.

But seeing the future is thought to create a sense of FATE and thus destroy choice and free moral agency. That is a reasonable presumption. But of course, just because God looks into the future and sees what CHOICE you made, doesn't mean you didn't make that choice yourself.

But knowing too much in advance DOES affect your behavior potentially. So some things are not told to you or understood by you before it happenes. Thus prophecy works very much RETROSPECTIVELY. That is, we might not recognize a prophecy about something at first but after it happens then you recognize it.

Case in point, the second coming. After the Holocaust, the great tribuilation, the Bible says darkness of the sun, moon and stars would take place. That means details about the second coming are suppressed among the majority of God's people. Only the "eagles" would understand the messiah arriving as the prodigal son JW, a gay black man. Now if this prophecy were known in advance by many, you can imagine that every black gay witness might think they are the messiah or could be the chosen one and that would affect their behavior. They certainly would not likely become the "prodigal son", leave God for a while and come back. It wouldn't be REAL if you understood that up front. Indeed, you simply try to fulfill the prophecy. But AFTER the fact that this happens, then you see the parable of the prodigal son was really prophetic of the messiah of the second coming, then you realize God saw this 2500 years in advance and had it written down. But as long as you didn't understand it, it didn't affect your choices. Had you understood it BEFORE, then it would affect your choices.

So knowing certain things that will happen in the future does not affect your choice. We know certain things, but the Bible doesn't say whether or not an individual will make a certain choice until he has made that choice.

So prophecy is provided to us SELECTIVELY to avoid a FATE kind of scenario. Or even if it is FATE, there is still CHOICE.

So take my situation. Jehovah could look into the future and see that I'm an absolute Bible nut! I love the Bible and the God's word is everything. I'm an inerrantist and have to prove the Bible is true. I'm extreme. Part black, part Cherokee Indian which in the black community is considered a tough combination. So I was chosen to be the messiah likely because of my intense interest in the Bible and my intelligence and my ethnic background that stereotypically needed to know the truth and was unimpressed with rhetoric and lies. BUT, as ideal as I was for those basic things with respect to God's word and the love of knowledge, I also ended up with some emotional problems. Transgendered dysphoria that would lead me away from the truth for a while, thus becoming the "lost sheep" and the prodigal son. But I'd come back to God at the last minute. His joy of my return would cause him to give me the messiahship, because me as the messiah had a lot of distinct advantages in a lot of areas. I was a great messianic package so to speak. So all my sins are forgiven. Jehovah saw that in the future and then just wrote about what I would do. What my weaknesses would be. How I would be disfellowshipped and thus outside the gate of the "Rich Man" who represents the GB of Jehovah's witnesses. How I would long for knowledge, even crumbs falling off the table of the rich man. But my sores caused me to be unclean and outside the organization. Those sores were licked by dogs. The context of a "dog" in the Bible is in connection with male prostitutes who dressed up as women and who were sodomized in the surrogate role of a female by these bi-sexual men who were called "dogs" because of the similar manner in which the sexual exchange took place (i.e. "doggie style"). So the Bible even relates those specific details, however, embarrasing, of what I would do. But because I didn't realize the prodigal son or Lazarus was actually ME, or that even the messiah would return in the flesh as a black, gay JW, all those were my choices. So advance prophecy didn't really create FATE.

So certain things are FATE and its good to know about certain things. Like I can calculate how much time I have with each of the 1,440,000 anointed if I spend six months a year personally available to them. Only about 2 hours each over 1000 years. So that's good to know in advance. It tells me what I will be doing. It's a confirmation of what I'm like and what I would have chosen to do anyway.

So, God does and can look into the future. Some things are reassuring for us, and to impress us with this ability he has these prophecies written down long in advance, but doesn't always give us the understanding about them until after the fact, which still is impressive. Not knowing too many details does not rob us of our free moral agency, so indeed, there is a factor involved about people knowing too much in advance because that would affect their behavior. God knowing what YOU will do in the next 2 years does not affect your choice in doing it, particularly if he doesn't tell you. You act on your own volition.

Good topic. Understandable concern.

So God KNOWS if you will choose to worship him or not, but it's still your choice, so choose good and live! What have you got to loose? But if you figure it doesn't matter and you don't have a choice anyway and you choose evil and to die, is that God causing you to do that? No. God has not taken away your freedom of choice.

See my vid on FREE WILL and TRUE HAPPINESS for more of my thoughts. Obviously, this is an interesting topic for many, including myself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrGEZjA6vvE

JC

snowbird

You gotta read this to believe this.

Sylvia