The 'Gentile Times' started in 70AD not 607BCE!!!!

by yadda yadda 2 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  yadda yadda 2

  From John Denton's amazing website: http://www.tangotango.org.uk/

  DID THE GENTILE TIMES START IN 607 BC?

  Some authorities on Bible prophecy having accepted Russell's calculations, teach that the 2,520 years of the Gentile Times started in 607 BC, when they reckon the last God approved king Zedekiah reigned over Jerusalem as God's representative king, 2,520 years from this date ends in 1914. Following are six reasons why this assumption is inaccurate.

  6a) The tree vision was given to Nebuchadnezzar not Zedekiah. It related to a period starting when the Babylonian dynasty was chopped down, not God's. Yahweh sets the date for this chopping down, having an angel write on the wall the proclamation to cut down the Babylonian dynasty on the wall during the very day the dynasty is brought to its end (Daniel Chapters 4 & 5).

  6b) Daniel's prophecy of 'seven times' following the cutting down of the tree could not be applied to Zedekiah in Jerusalem as Daniel explicitly says at 4:22 the tree symbolises the king of Babylon and his Dynasty.

  6c) The previous vision to Nebuchadnezzar of a symbolic statue was a parallel vision of the same time period. In no way would anyone argue that the head of Gold represented Zedekiah's rulership. Both visions related to the same things.

  6d) Zedekiah could hardly be reckoned as God's king. God had already arranged that the previous king Jehoiachin was removed by Nebuchadnezzar as punishment to the nation; he would hardly have replaced him with another king in contradiction of his expressed warnings (Jer 27:6,12-14,17,20-22) .

  6e) Zedekiah was not anointed by God to reign as king in Jerusalem, he was appointed to the job of vassal representative by Nebuchadnezzar (2 Kings 24:17). Later he rebelled against his master Nebuchadnezzar, despite God warning him against carrying out this totally unnecessary self-destructive action. In no way can it be construed his rule was on behalf of Jehovah.

  6f) The seat of God's rulership continued at Jerusalem with or without an anointed king being present. Some 600 years later, Jesus in 33 recognised that God's symbolic seat of rulership was still the temple at Jerusalem without any anointed king representing him at the time. Just before his death he presented himself at this seat of rulership as its appointed king (Luke 19:34-44) . Although the covenants changed in 33 and special favour to the Jews was extended to 36, along with the temple and city of Jerusalem, Jehovah did not tear them down until the year 70. Jesus in his signs foretold that after the temples destruction in 70 the nations would trample on literal Jerusalem, and continue to do so until the Gentile times ended, when the new temple and city would be constructed in the heavens (Luke 21:24) . Jerusalem's being trodden on, according to Jesus, did not start in 607 BC but in AD 70.
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  JosephMalik

  How could the Gentiles trample down Jerusalem in 70CE if they were not already in existence and a powerful force in the world long before then? This is just as true for the year 70CE or any other year that we can think of as well. And why do so many run all over the Bible with a lot of unrelated facts when the answer was always there in scripture staring them in the face? Where? Well right from the start where it said: Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel. There always was a Gentile Times bruising the other seed then throughout history as there always were two seeds existing side by side in conflict with faithful ones who finally win out in the end. Cain killed Able right from this early start. And because of their badness the world had to suffer a flood and the confusion of its language during such early history. But can we clear this up a bit more? Where would you go for a more explicit answer to this question? To the very verses that discuss these Gentile times. Everyone runs to Luke and think they have the answer because it says:

  Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

  But when did such Gentiles start. When they surrounded the Jerusalem that Luke discussed? No! They existed then but did not start then. How do we know? Because Matthew and Mark discussed this same prophecy and these same Gentile times in this way:

  Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

  Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

  The end is the same. The ones involved are the same. The prophecy is the same. The words Gentile times were not used here but Luke cleared this up for us by providing the identity of this seed. Mt. And Mark identified such Gentile from their beginning to their end. Luke did not contradict this and simply gave them identity. And we do not have to use texts out of context to make this point.

  Joseph
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  yadda yadda 2

  Malik, the first sentence in your post doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate? And those other scriptures are talking about the beginning of humankind, not of some period of time when the gentiles could be said to be trampling on something. What exactly are you saying in your post, that the times of the Gentiles started from Abraham?

  It seems entirely reasonable to me that the times of the gentiles starts when the Jewish system of worship was finally abandoned by Jehovah and destroyed, ie, 70AD and it finishes when heavenly Jerusalem is created in heaven, which is a future time.
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  JosephMalik

  Malik, the first sentence in your post doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate? And those other scriptures are talking about the beginning of humankind, not of some period of time when the gentiles could be said to be trampling on something. What exactly are you saying in your post, that the times of the Gentiles started from Abraham?

  Yadda 2,

  That’s right. It is a typo that I did not notice until it was too late to correct. It should have said 607BCE instead of 70CE. I did this quickly without checking. And yes those other scriptures are talking about the beginning of humankind because that is when such Gentile Times began. While the prophecy was concerned about world conditions during a specific generation, all the players were around for much longer than that as Matt and Mark show. Luke did not say they were not, he simply identified one of these players by giving them this Gentile identity.

  Yadda 2 said: It seems entirely reasonable to me that the times of the gentiles starts when the Jewish system of worship was finally abandoned by Jehovah and destroyed, ie, 70AD and it finishes when heavenly Jerusalem is created in heaven, which is a future time.

  But we know that they had to be there all along. The Jewish religion did not end simply because their Temple was destroyed. They were living all over the world at the time and most of them never saw it. They continued on. In fact it still has not ended. 70CE means nothing but more war as prophecied so we should not be alarmed. The Jewish system really ended with our Lord’s death if you want to be precise and replaced at Pentecost when authority was passed to our Lord’s disciples continue in its place. So when did such Gentiles have their beginning? I was simply showing that the WT’s interpretation of Gen 3:15 is wrong and this is why we do not see it. They apply the seed to Christ who was a seed of the woman Eve who because of this: 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. This entire seed of Eve that was not of the serpent would later fulfil something like: 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Simple. Now we know the foundation text for parables such as the wheat and weeds, or sheep and goats that have always existed since this beginning as were such Gentiles mixed in among them.

  Joseph
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  yadda yadda 2

  Joseph, Thank you for explaining what you meant earlier. I can understand what you are saying but I can't accept your interpretation because you are making much too broad an application to the meaning of 'times of the Gentiles' to put the starting point at the beginning of human history, and again, your application is much to broad to imply the end of the times of the Gentiles to mean when the Jewish race is finished. The start and end of the Gentile times would be meaningless with such broad applications in my opinion.

  I think John Denton's starting and ending points revolving around the destruction of the Jewish temple (which signified God's removing his favour from the Jewish nation) to the creation of the spiritual temple in heaven makes much more sense. The 'trampling' has a spiritualised meaning, not literal.

  Denton's view that the start of the 7 times (which is nothing to do with the times of the gentiles) at 539bce is also perfectly logical because clearly the tree was cut down when Babylon fell. The end of the 7 times is when Jesus assumes world rulership in his Kingdom, which coincides with the end of the 'Gentile Times'.

  The point is, however, that the Watchtower's (Russell's) teaching that both these time periods started in 607BCE is quite clearly wrong!
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  JosephMalik

  The start and end of the Gentile times would be meaningless with such broad applications in my opinion.

  Yadda2,

  Well that is your right and we find many other views on this prophecy. But it is not too broad an application to say that this is the same humanity or Gentile times that our Lord will judge or that it is the same humanity from which all resurrection will take place since such Gentiles are the Nations in other texts. And since we only have this expression in this one prophecy which provided this answer what is the basis for running to other unrelated prophecies or texts that do not use it? If we do that we can teach anything we want like the WT does. Keeping our answers in the very texts they appear will generally provide the best results. That is why I have found this to be the best conclusion to this problem.

  Joseph

  P.S. It is not simply the end of the Jewish race, it is the end of all races since it is also the time when our Lord comes in the clouds. The Gospels agree that it is the time that: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. This is why 70CE applications have no place as the fulfillment of the texts is still in the future..
  JM