Most damning portion?

by Slappy 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Slappy

  Apparently this didn't post the first time...or my comp is just acting up; sorry if there ends up being two of these.

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  Is Luke 23:39-43 the single most damning portion in the Bible for the JW, Mormon, and other similar 'religions' that profess to believe in the God of the Bible?

  When did the thief do good works in order to attain his salvation? When did he have the time to follow a 'religious' body and adhere to its rules in order that he may attain salvation?

  Just a random thought I found interesting.
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  Gregor

  That is a neat little passage there. Don't recall ever hearing a borg explanation.
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  passwordprotected

  I've used this to help a couple of friends of ours to see that the JW obsession with works is bogus. I also used it with my parents to prove the same thing. It's an excellent section of Scripture.
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  reniaa

  i thought the JWs used this one a lot to show all that died will be on a paradise earth and not a heavenly calling, because jesus clearly says paradise although i'm not upto date on thhis.

  Also did that thief gain salvation and forgiveness by recognising jesus shouldn't be there, as well as repentence because he recognise he was being justly punished by roman law?

  why did jesus say paradise not heaven?
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  passwordprotected

  @reniaa - the trap you've fallen into is not checking to see if the WTS accurately interprets the Bible. Yes, I do realise that only they have the divine right to do so, but oftentimes you'll find people who are schooled in Greek and are respected by Christendom for their unsurpassed knowledge of the languages the Bible was written who give us a slightly different take from the WTS writing committee. It could be argued that such scholars have the qualifications to accurately interpret the Bible through giving us an accurate understanding of what the writers of the Bible were trying to convey.
  
  But I ramble on.
  
  Robertson's Word Pictures* on of the New Testaments makes some interesting points about Jesus use of the word 'paradise' when address the wrong doer.
  
  If you'd like to read his comments, you can find them here. Don't be afraid.
  
  For those who don't wish to click the link, here's what is said;
  "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise (Shmeron met emou esh en twi paradeiswi). However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him. He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was used for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). The word occurs in two other passages in the N.T. (2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7), in both of which the reference is plainly to heaven. Some Jews did use the word for the abode of the pious dead till the resurrection, interpreting "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) in this sense also. But the evidence for such an intermediate state is too weak to warrant belief in it."
  
  *You may have heard of this publication when it's been misquoted by the WTS in support of some of their unique beliefs.
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  reniaa

  you gotta know I would check this up Password and wiki says it can also mean the garden of eden, and when jesus says the meek shall inherit the earth, it with a view to earth completely becoming the garden of eden paradise so to speak.

  so it does have a double-meaning
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  passwordprotected

  For it to truly mean an paradise on earth, the Persian (or Farsi) would include the word 'zamin' or earth, in other words 'paradise on earth'. Jesus just said paradise. Same word is used in two other instances in the NT, both occasions speak of heaven.
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  abbagail

  It's been my post-JW understanding that paradise refers to the third heaven where Paul went whether in the body or out, he doesn't know...
  
  And since he was in the 3rd, that means there are a 1st and a 2nd heaven...
  
  This site explains it simply with a good amount of scripture... just a snip from it:
  
  http://www.biblestudy.org/question/are-there-different-levels-of-heaven.html
  [...]
  --The first heaven is the heaven that has the air and clouds that form our atmosphere encompassing the earth.
  --The second heaven is the universe that contains the sun, moon, stars and galaxies.
  --The third heaven is a place we know little about, other than it is the place where God, Christ and the angels, a/k/a paradise of God.
  [...]