Evolution and the Good conquering the Bad.

by D wiltshire 3 Replies latest jw friends

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    One of the more popular teachings of evolution is the good in the long run conquers the bad.

    What I mean is this:

    There are both good and bad mutations and as life evolved to more and more complex forms the the process of selecting the good mutations and supresion of bad, by what ever means had to take place to make for instance:
    The eye from just a light sensitive spot.
    The human brain.
    Legs from fins and back fins again.
    An apposable thumb.
    The heart.
    Moral coscience.
    Walking upright.

    I often wounder how evolution could make these things:
    A sense of humor.
    Music appreciation.
    A sense of wounder.
    Altruism.
    Life dupication of itself.
    The DNA molecule for reprodution.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Well, for a start, you are stating a scientific arguement in non-scientific terms... good conquers bad?

    Bit simplistic, and the fact good and bad have moral overtones doesn't help. A pack of African Wild Dogs running a Gunu to the point it can be pulled down and ripped to pieces (African Wild Dogs being well known for their lack of fussiness over whether their prey is dead or alive before they start eating) is good for the dogs, but somewhat bad for the gnu.

    See what I mean about science education? You're obviously an intelligent person, but open a discussion on how certain features get passed on in very indistinct terms.

    Basically, features that give greater chance of survival lead to the genes for those features being passed on more often than genes that were not as optimal for survival.

    That is just one mechanism by which evolution takes place.

    Sometimes it is a trade-off. Sickle-cell anemia is a good example. If a person has half the genetic trait, their susceptability to malaria is reduced. If they have the whole genetic trait, broadly speaking, they die.

    Of the list you ponder "I often wonder how evolution could make these things", well, only two have answers in strict terms of biological evolution. Duplication is not a characteristic unique to 'life'; proteins do it too, as I've mentioned before. It's been five years since I did the nitty-gritty on this, so forgive me if other examples don't spring to mind, but there are several other examples of non-'life' replication.

    The lack of any incontravertable evidence of how non-live became live is no secret. But we have examples that show that such a thing is possible. Any quasi-live entity can evolve; prions again are a lovely example. I find it reasonable to assume, in the absence of other evidence, that that is what happened. Others look for god in this event, and can do so, but are making as much of an assumption as me, but with less evidence - we don't see any quasi-god's creating life, do we?

    The other characteristics...

    "A sense of humor.
    Music appreciation.
    A sense of wounder.
    Altruism."

    ... are seemingly not selectable as traits beneficial to survival (unless Smilodon Sabre-tooths could be stopped mid-spring by a little tune... if you've seen/read Harry Potter you'll get that).

    But I diasgree. Let us start with a sense of wonder. I think this is linked to curiosity. If one does not have one the other is impossible. This curiosity is seen in many higher mammals. My cat is completely fascinated and curious about the little sunbeam on the wall, made by the glass in my watch reflecting sunlight. It chases it like mad. It knows it has something to do with the time of day the sun enters the room the right way, and something to do with me, and something to do with my watch.

    Occasionally it will stare at my watch instead of the beam, with the closest to a look of concentration on a feline face I have seen. It is just beyond it's mental ability to grasp the process. I think the cat is experiencing a sense of wonder. So curiosity (of obvious survival benefits) is the source of wonder.

    This sense of curiosity is even more pronounced in primates and cetaceans. Is it any wonder that the cleverest primate of all has the biggest ability to wonder?

    Think of the way you approach something you've not seen before; "What's that? How does it work? Wow!". If it is something that is hard to come to closure on (mobile phones used to be Wow!, now they are commonplace), like a sunset, or your girlfriend's face, something you can't 'figure out', you retain that sense of wonder. Perhaps it is just a "buffer over-run"! To much data to handle!

    As for a sense of humour, this obviously DOES have survival benefits (probably making an animal more approachable, and thus increasing the liklihood of them breeding), and exists in other creatures. Chimpanzee researchers observing a troop of chimps noted that the alpha male injured himself, and walked for a week or so with one of his arms curled up, rather than 'knuckling' like chimps normally do. Subordinate males imitated him, but stopped whenever he turned round. He tried to catch them, but they were always walking normally by the time he turned round. This continued for months after he was walking properly. They were taking the piss, as we say in England.

    Musical appreciation is another benefit of our big brains; you have a problem solving machine of the most amasing complexity, a machine also capable of finding patterns. These are mental processes involved in musical appreciation. No deliberate survival benefit, but a great side effect!

    Altruism is worthy of a debate on it's own... many events that are seemingly altruistic are complicated social transactions that would make more sense in smaller social groups with shared kinship, but in the modern world are still instinctive reations for many.

    Other altruistic acts are a side effect of the fact we are capable of imposing an individual reality upon reality (a side effect of our big-brains, and abstarct thinking is obviously a survival benefit) that means an action that is seemingly altruistic was motivated by some internal worldview, and was not really altruistic, as it at some level made us feel good about ourselves.

    Have a good weekend...!

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Abbadon,

    I knew you would come up with some plausible explanations.
    Yes I stayed away from scientific terms and used Good and Bad instead.

    I hope you have a nice weekend too.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    D wiltshire,

    Evolution and history are also affected by contingency. Michael Shermer has a chapter about this in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science.

    Shermer says:

    So powerful are the effects of contingency that a small change in the early stages of a sequence can produce large effects in the later stages. Edward Lorenz calls this the butterfly effect and by now the metaphor is well known: A butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil, producing a storm in Texas. The uncertainty of our past and unpredictability of our future created by contingency is what makes this such a challenging idea to historians and scientists, whose models and laws call for a search for unifying generalities, not capricious happenstances.
    He also cites the example of the QWERTY keyboard, which has "conquered" not because it is the best or fastest, but because it became familiar and widely used early in the history of typing.

    As for altruism, I find the idea of group selection as it is presented in Howard Bloom's Global Brain intriguing. Is our drive for survival as individuals or for survival as a human race?

    Ginny

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