Sin

by AllTimeJeff 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    The subject of sin is one that is at the core of Judeo/Christian thought. JW's and ex JW's alike deal with many levels of guilt that is associated with believing that certain actions and thoughts are "sinful" or offensive to god.

    JW's define sin as "a missing of the mark...... God himself sets the mark..... Missing that mark is sin. sin is anything not in harmony with God's personality, standards, ways and will. It may involve wrong conduct, failure to do what should be done, ungodly speech, unclean thoughts, or desires or motives that are selfish."

    It has been commented on frequently that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses define additional layers of sin through their interpretation of the bible.

    Other sources define sin as

    Wikipedia:Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moralrule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity (such as Yahweh or Allah in the Abrahamic religions).

    Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".

    Christians often argue that because we are sinful, all man needs Christ and his ransom sacrifice. That is very telling.

    Consider for a moment: Without the concept of sin, (whatever definition one wishes to put on it) there is no need for Christian religion, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, or the need to feel guilt over certain actions.

    I should state here before I go any further that semantics, word play, and definitions have always colored this argument. Often, differences result because of ones chosen point of view.

    A Christian will view sin as an offense against god. A non Christian will often look at the same action or conduct as either a personal decision or a simple mistake.

    The difference in the mental well being of a person because of their view of their own conduct is substantial.

    Christian theists maintain that mistakes, errors in judgment, and certain lifestyle choices are sinful. I maintain that in the absence of god, such conduct merely reflects the human condition as we understand it today. Such actions represent personal choices, nothing more.

    Christian theists link sin to the ever important quest for "perfection", because sin to one degree or another always implies imperfection. I maintain that the striving for perfection, based on ancient writings from ancient religions are antiquated and out of date. The evidence shows that the quest for perfection, and the guilt many carry as a result of viewing themselves as sinful does substantial harm to the mental and emotional well being of people.

    I am interested in a discussion on this. I view sin as a control mechanism for man made religions. Without implementing the idea that we sin and offend god, there is no need for religion.

    Obviously, atheists and agnostics maintain that they are fine without god, something that causes deep consternation in theists, who maintain that no one will be ok without their god.

    Sin implies failure, sin implies a need to placate an invisible personage, sin implies that we are wrong more then we are right. Sin provides an opportunity for religion to control people. Without sin, religion goes out of business.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Man's (very successful) attempt to harness the power of guilt.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    I have never subscribed to the idea that all people are born in sin or of sin. I don't believe that people have to atone for some sin they apparently were born with and have to belong to some religious order to achieve absolution. I believe the greatest sin is in teaching people they are born with it and thus are evil and have to work to be good. They must achieve a standard set by whichever community they happen to be part of. We are humans. We are born. We die. In between that time, we will be judged on our behaviour and hopefully, that will be filled with goodness, kindness and compassion.

    The real sin is being judged guilty while innocent. sammieswife.

  • AllTimeJeff
  • lrkr
    lrkr

    Sin is an attempt to make people feel inadequate and off balance. Therfore, if you walk into a church or Kingdom Hall feeling pretty good about yourself, the sermon and associated ritual will knock you off balance. You are sinful. You may not even know why or how, but repent. It throws you off and makes anyone who buys it easy to control. I agree with whats been said, its a tool of the powerful.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Jeff, your thread started me thinking of the 3 positions from which society negotiates order and peaceful community life. Extreme social control can result from all 3 but it doesn't necessarily have to be so in our day

    1. That man is inherently corrupt and therefore sinful being inclined towards sin from birth. This seems as you said to be the religious traditional judeao/chritian way). This has and can lead to religious control/overcontrol.

    2. That the human mind is a tabula rasa, a blank slate. Now this has has also lead to experiments that came to be seen as extreme social control. For example highly disciplined school systems and communities that emphasized the exclusion of religion. This also came to be seen as repressive and unhealthy

    3. that humans are neither inherently sinful or "a blank slate " at birth. This position has also led to totalitarianism.

    I'm not trying to be negative but just to highlight the problem of finding a way in which humans can negotiate successfully with one another in highly diverse society.

  • carla
    carla

    Don't most jw's believe they are not sinners? or what mine calls 'active' or 'intentional' sins. Or is mine just particularly arrogant? He knows he is guilty due to what jw's call 'Adamic sin' but in general he is not a sinner though he does occasionally 'miss the mark'. See? that is why he can't go to a church, they are full of sinners (and it would hurt jah's feelings).

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Jeff, your thread started me thinking of the 3 positions from which society negotiates order and peaceful community life. Extreme social control can result from all 3 but it doesn't necessarily have to be so in our day

    1. That man is inherently corrupt and therefore sinful being inclined towards sin from birth. This seems as you said to be the religious traditional judeao/chritian way). This has and can lead to religious control/overcontrol.

    2. That the human mind is a tabula rasa, a blank slate. Now this has has also lead to experiments that came to be seen as extreme social control. For example highly disciplined school systems and communities that emphasized the exclusion of religion. This also came to be seen as repressive and unhealthy

    3. that humans are neither inherently sinful or "a blank slate " at birth. This position has also led to totalitarianism.

    I'm not trying to be negative but just to highlight the problem of finding a way in which humans can negotiate successfully with one another in highly diverse society.

    Not at all. I think its fascinating. Sin has always been a major means of control. The emphasis of the individual and the empowerment of the individual this century has actually had a very predictable effect, the lessening of religions power and control.

    To empower the individual is to de-emphasize the role of organized religion. The idea that YOU can figure things out for yourself, including your own definitions of spirituality and/or god works against the current of power.

    In my own journey, I have read up a small bit on Buddhism. Which as many know, doesn't nec have a god to worship. Its all about self enlightenment and finding the "middle path". How would one learn about this in the USA for example, 100 years ago?

    You would have to travel and get the real scoop. Obviously, the churches, if they were to bring up Buddhism at all, would present it in a negative light. (remember the book "Mankinds Search for God"? A great borgbot foray to dissuade from looking deeper at other theistic systems)

    But the world has shrunk exponentially in the last 20 years thanks to the internet. (Thanks Al Gore!!) The western worlds democratic philosophy of self determinism has led to people wanting to develop a world view that fits what they see, not what their religion of birth sees. Now, each person has the means to learn about other cultures, world views, and religious philosophy. One doesn't have to rely solely on a prejudiced source anymore to get information.

    We wouldn't expect religions to take kindly to this, and they haven't. Since the culture wars of the 60's till now, they have tried to paint the USA as inherently Christian by design of the founding fathers (not true) and that our "way of life" is threatened by those who are different. (Gay and lesbians, non nuclear (i.e. married) families with children...) then instead of trying to understand the dynamics, different is defined as "sinful".

    History teaches that any time change happens in cultures, that change is deemed "sinful" by those who pine for the older days....

    2. That the human mind is a tabula rasa, a blank slate. Now this has has also lead to experiments that came to be seen as extreme social control. For example highly disciplined school systems and communities that emphasized the exclusion of religion. This also came to be seen as repressive and unhealthy

    I think it a logical development that a "blank slate" view of the mind will evolve to an understanding that there is a "spiritual" aspect to each person. Instead of demonizing this, schools and communities will merely educate about all of them, allowing the individual to make up their own mind. The extreme example of information control will be relaxed.....

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Sin, and particularly original sin, is the biggest scam on the planet. It is nothing more than the world's biggest pyramid scam, which spreads because part of what is necessary to get salvation is to get others into your church. It also keeps people in line, allows every sort of regulator the ability to wreak havoc on people's freedoms, and keeps churches and Kingdumb Hells from going belly up.

  • done4good
    done4good

    Great thread. I, myself have come to the same conclusion. Sin is little more than a definition of "badness" or "evil" within a religious context, and most certainly is used as a control mechanism.

    We learn what real "good" and "bad" is through social development. I believe this is the very reason we all have left the jws, to begin with. We saw through the thinly disguised definitions of sin, as the control mechanism that it is. The greater good was almost never accomplished because of this human definition. Eventually, we figured out the the definition of "sin" that we were taught to believe and real principles of good and bad were not in fact, the same thing.

    j

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