QUESTIONS FROM JOELBEAR

by You Know 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • You Know
    You Know

    On the previous thread ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17150&site=3) on disfellowshipping you asked several questions:

    Where is the scriptural reference that says qualified men will serve as judges in the congregation?

    Probably one of the most important portions of Scripture in that connection is the 6th chapter of 1st Corinthians. There, Paul chided the Corinthians because they were using worldly judges to settle their disputes among themselves. Paul said with surprise: “Is it true that there is not one wise man among you that will be able to judge between his brothers?” Prior to that Paul reminded them that the anointed were going to judge angels and then said: “Why, then, not matters of this life? If then you do have matters of this life to be tried, is it to men looked down on in the congregation that you put up as judges?” This account shows, then, that it is appropriate for elders to serve as judges in the congregation. Paul even used the word “tried” ---- as in trying a case at law. Some might counter that this account does not deal with judicial cases but only trivial disputes. But just a couple of verses down in that context Paul listed the sort of things that would disqualify a person from God’s kingdom. So, the cases that the Christian judges would handle would involve serious matters that could result in a person becoming disapproved by God.

    Furthermore, in Paul’s letter to Titus, he told Titus to make appointments of older men for the specific purpose of reproving, even with severity, those who contradict the teaching of the apostles. In fact, Paul said that it was necessary for Titus and these older men to shut the mouths of the men who were subverting entire households by their false teaching. Now, most likely, the only way the mouths of the profitless talkers could be shut up is if they were removed from the congregation, or perhaps some may have let themselves be reproved by the appointed older men of Crete. In any case, it was the assignment given to Titus and those whom he was authorized by the apostle to appoint as overseers.

    Where is the reference that says 3 men will decide whether a person should be "handed over to Satan"?
    There is no Scripture that says that specifically. In the case of Paul handing over apostates to Satan he seems to have acted as an individual. However, the principle of two or three is well founded in the Law of Moses that “at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be (legally) established.” In fact, Jesus cited this principle, or law actually, at Deuteronomy 19:15, when giving instructions on how to deal with problems that would arise among Christians. It is understood that when Christ said to escalate matters to the congregation that he didn’t mean that the whole congregation would serve as a jury in the case. That would not have been consistent with the arrangement in Jewish society where the older men listen to cases at law and judged for the nation. Interestingly, at Deuteronomy 19:17 & 18 Jehovah refers to the judges, plural, who would be hearing certain cases. For example: “And the JUDGES must search thoroughly…” indicating that each case had more than one judge. So, there certainly is a Scriptural basis for having a two or three man body as opposed to a single judge. In some cases there may be reason for more than three. There’s really nothing hard and fast that it has to be only three.

    Where is the reference that says the person must come back and make their case to them before being welcomed back? Where is the appeals process set up? Where is the direction to these judges as to what constitutes repentence?
    Well, that is easily explained in light of the fact that a person must produce fruits of repentance. If a person has been condemned as an unrepentant sinner, then the same legal process must likewise approve them. It is only reasonable that if a person is judged unfit for fellowship within the congregation by a committee of older men, then, the only way that that individual could have the legal impositions lifted off of them is by appealing to the same legal body that originally ruled in the case. As an example of how the process works, Paul told the Corinthians that they should kindly forgive, comfort, and confirm their love for a certain man, who may well have been the man whom Paul had originally counseled them to remove from their midst. (2 Corinthians 2:5-8) Paul told them to forgive so that the offender would not be consumed in grief. That the congregation had authority to forgive is noteworthy in this discussion. The point though is that the offender was sorry. It is understood too, by the context, that Paul was talking about godly sadness, as opposed to the sadness of the world. The point is that the congregation had the prerogative to stay resentful or to forgive. The basis for judging repentance and extending forgiveness though was the fact that the man had evidently repented of his sin and that was evidenced by his contrite attitude. So, the older men representing the congregation could judge the man worthy of being welcomed back into the flock and the congregation was counseled to let the original rebuke of the majority be sufficient punishment.

    In addition, James counseled the afflicted souls to call the older men of the congregation to themselves. The purpose being: to effect a spiritual healing of the troubled soul. That’s evident by the fact that the Scripture says: “Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.” There, then, is provision for older men serving as priests in effect. They would in the case of repentant erring ones intervene so as to extent forgiveness to them from the person of Jehovah. Again, showing that human judges are involved in accepting the evidence of the fruitage of repentance on the part of the erring one. / You Know

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    yeah. fine. but youre overlooking the glaring fact. The Witness org is corrupt and produces evil fruit. It destroys peoples lives. It cant possibly be Gods instrument.All this scriptural wrangling demonstrating that the dubs have the right interpretation of scripture means nothing.

  • Budda Belly
    Budda Belly

    Does You Know have a crush on Joelbear?

    Watch out Joel, you may have finally
    meet you true Hoss Cartwright.

  • ISP
    ISP

    OK online Vote.......

    Consider Dave the manic King dude. Committed adultery with Bathesheba.
    Got her pregnant. Tried to cover it up. Got the husband killed. Was not forthcoming with his repentance.

    DF? Y/N

    Consider Manasseh. Bad King. Killed kids.

    DF? Y/N

    Ananias and Sapphira. Sold some land did not donate all to the cause.

    DF? Y/N
    (Tip- God seems to punish misdemeanours with money more than with peoples lives)

    So with these examples would-be judges of today ie elders can confidently going into a JC knowing whatever decision they make will be 'bound in heaven'.

    ISP

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply You Know.

    Joel

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    YouKnow,

    Paul said with surprise: “Is it true that there is not one wise man among you that will be able to judge between his brothers?” Prior to that Paul reminded them that the anointed were going to judge angels and then said: “Why, then, not matters of this life? If then you do have matters of this life to be tried, is it to men looked down on in the congregation that you put up as judges?” This account shows, then, that it is appropriate for elders to serve as judges in the congregation.
    If anything, this account shows that it is appropriate for anointed ones to serve as judges in the congregation.

    In fact, Jesus cited this principle, or law actually, at Deuteronomy 19:15, when giving instructions on how to deal with problems that would arise among Christians.
    Jesus' words can be found at Matthew 18:15-17:

    Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.
    Yet you say:
    It is understood that when Christ said to escalate matters to the congregation that he didn’t mean that the whole congregation would serve as a jury in the case. That would not have been consistent with the arrangement in Jewish society where the older men listen to cases at law and judged for the nation.
    By whom is it understood that Christ didn't mean the whole congregation when he said "the congregation"? It seems to me that Jesus felt little need to be consistent with the established arrangements in Jewish society under the Mosaic law.

    NeonMadman has some very good comments about 1 Corinthians 6 in this thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=15500&page=2&site=3

    Ginny

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    ISP,

    Let me reply on behalf of You Know:

    "Well, er um, ahem, cough splutter, TRULY APOSTATES QUESTIONS COME FROM THE DEVIL, Ha! You stupid person! LOL! / You Know.

    Englishman.

    Bring on the dancing girls!

  • JT
    JT

    You Know
    uses the phrase

    "qualified men"

    while i don't agree with wt on many of it's views- is it truly not sad to see that even by WT standards our boy YK is considered _Unqualified to serve

    you got to love it

    james

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace!

    And actually, one again, You Know is in error (sorry, YK!)

    Rather than follow Paul (who actually addressed the matter of being judged by men - 1 Corinthians 4:3-5 - and kinda contradicts himself, yes?), those who 'belong' to Christ should 'follow' Christ. So, what did HE say on the subject of judging?

    Matthew 5:40
    Matthew 7:1-5
    Matthew 18:15-17

    Notice in Matthew 18 that YOU are to speak to your brother, and then YOU are to take one or two more with YOU and then you are to speak TO THE CONGREGATION. And even in the final instance, are you to disfellowship? Or are you to treat such one as the tax collectors? How, then, did our Lord treat 'tax collectors'?

    Matthew 5:43-48
    Matthew 11:19
    Mark 2:15

    But where is the 'role' of 'leaders' or 'older men' in this process, according to our Lord?

    Matthew 23:2, 3, 10, 11

    And yes, Paul taught 'disfellowshipping'... intially. But was he not corrected by those who actually walked with our Lord? And what, then was our Lord's 'take' on those 'disfellowshipped' (expelled)? Was it the man expelled that he condemned? Or those that expelled him?

    Matthew 6:14, 15
    John 8:1-11
    2 Corinthians 2:8-10
    John 9:22, 34, 35, 40, 41

    Dear You Know... my Father knows you zeal and love you have for His name (which you do know). But you have been misled by men who have seated themselves in the seat of Moses, who have made themselves the 'mediator' between the Body of Christ and God... when there already IS a mediator. You continue to adhere to... and TEACH... their traditions and doctrines and commandments... which 'overstep' the commandments of God. But... you DON'T have to continue doing so. Look! The Door stands 'open' (John 10:7, 8) Will walk through IT.. or continue to 'climb up some other place'? (John 10:1)

    The choice is yours, my brother. Mercy is ALWAYS extended to Israel. ALWAYS. My Lord died in the flesh so that it could be so.

    Again, I bid you all peace...

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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