Twenty years to figure it out?

by purplesofa 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    Myabe the GB knew the right answer sooner than twenty years, but it was not until 20 years did they correct it.

    How many other things have been figured out that they are silent about?

    Maybe reniaa will read this!

    In the 1951 Watchtower(W51 12/15 p. 763), a Witness wrote in and asked: How can

    we say that Paul became the twelfth apostle, when Matthias was chosen by

    casting lots? The evidence was that Paul was the 12th apostle because he was

    specifically chosen by Christ as was the original twelve and the casting of

    lots to get Matthias was before holy spirit and not appropriate. However,

    20-years later in 1971, another question: Was the apostle Paul one of the

    twelve apostles? The conclusion? "Therefore, the evidence indicates that

    Paul was not one of the twelve apostles, the secondary foundations of New

    Jerusalem. However, he was the special apostle of Christ to the nations, or

    Gentiles, and this assignment he zealously fulfilled."

    *** w51 12/15 p. 763 Questions From Readers ***

    Questions From Readers

    ? How can we say that Paul became the twelfth apostle, when Matthias was chosen by casting lots?—M. W., Florida.

    On the night of his betrayal and arrest Jesus said to the eleven faithful apostles: “You did not choose me, but I chose you, and I appointed you.” (John 15:16, NW) The original twelve apostles were selected by direct choice and appointment by Jesus, not by the casting of lots, as in the case of Matthias. In seeking to fill the vacancy left by faithless Judas, Peter had in mind the fulfillment of Psalm 109:8, quoting: “Let a different man take his office of overseer.” But by casting lots to find one to “take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated”, Peter and those with him were acting in advance of the Lord Jesus Christ and without any instruction from him. (Acts 1:20, 25, NW) They did not wait to “become clothed with power from on high”, to “be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this”, and hence this pre-Pentecostal selection of Matthias was not done under the guidance of the holy spirit.—Luke 24:49; Acts 1:5, NW.

    After the casting of lots no mention is made in the Scriptures of Matthias personally. True, Acts 1:26 (NW) says he was “reckoned along with the eleven apostles”; but it does not say he was reckoned as an apostle of Jesus Christ. Acts 6:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:5 speak of “the twelve”, referring to the eleven apostles and Matthias, because Matthias and the eleven apostles were associated together as a committee of special servants in the congregation at Jerusalem; but it is noteworthy that in these cases the terms “twelve” and “apostles” are not used together.

    But that a replacement, and only one, for Judas was selected in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8 is made certain by Revelation 21:14, which refers to “the twelve apostles of the Lamb”. That replacement was chosen by Christ Jesus, just as were the original twelve apostles. Was not Paul specially chosen, Christ the spirit creature spectacularly manifesting himself to Paul? Concerning Paul Jesus said to Ananias: “This man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.” (Acts 9:15, NW) Jesus sent Paul forth, and Paul was excelled by no other “sent-forth one” or apostle of Christ. He was not bragging, but was writing under inspiration when he wrote concerning himself: “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through God’s will.” “Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father.” “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus.” “I was appointed a preacher and an apostle.”—Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 1:1; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:1; 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:1, 11; Titus 1:1, NW.

    Nevertheless, Paul’s apostleship was disputed by some in his day, making it necessary for him to declare frequently his appointment from the Lord. He challenged his disputants: “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, I most certainly am to you, for you are the seal confirming

    w71 5/15 318-320

    ? Was the apostle Paul one of the twelve apostles?

    The evidence reveals that, while Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, he is not presented by the Bible as one of the “twelve apostles.”

    The Greek word a·po´sto·los means “one sent forth.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, under “Apostle,” remarks: “Paul, though he had seen the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 9:1; 15:8, had not ‘companied with’ the Twelve ‘all the time’ of His earthly ministry, and hence was not eligible for a place among them, according to Peter’s description of the necessary qualifications, Acts 1:22. Paul was commissioned directly, by the Lord Himself, after His Ascension, to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.”

    Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve originally chosen by Jesus as an apostle. (Matt. 10:2-5; Luke 6:13-16) But he became a thief, then a traitor, betraying Jesus and finally killing himself, leaving eleven faithful apostles.—John 12:4-6; 18:1-5.

    After Christ’s death, but prior to Pentecost, 33 C.E., the apostle Peter presented at a Christian gathering the need for a replacement for Judas, in accord with the prophetic words at Psalm 109:8. “So they [evidently the male Christians present] put up two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.” The assembled Christians prayed, asking Jehovah to designate the replacement. Then “they cast lots over them [the two], and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was reckoned along with the eleven apostles.”—Acts 1:15-26.

    Just as the twelve sons of Jacob existed as the foundations of natural Israel at its beginning, so it was true to type that the twelve foundations of spiritual Israel (built upon the Chief Foundation, Jesus Christ) be present at the time of establishment of the Christian congregation, at Pentecost. When about 120 of the disciples gathered in an upper room on Pentecost day, they were in expectation of being baptized in holy spirit, because Jesus had told them at the time of his ascension ten days earlier that it would not be “many days.” (Acts 1:5, 8) There the Christian congregation began, and about 3,000 were built upon the foundation that very day. Now, no foundation is brought into a building after the erection of its superstructure has begun. So it does not seem that God would hold open Judas’ vacated place, awaiting Saul’s (Paul’s) conversion. God evidently acted then on the prayer of the assembled disciples. Accordingly the lot indicated Jehovah’s choice of Matthias.—Prov. 16:33.

    Did Matthias afterward display the qualifications of an apostle? The Scripture record shows that the apostles had, among other gifts, the power to transmit the miraculous gifts of the spirit. (Acts 8:14-18; 10:44) If Matthias were not in reality God’s choice, his inability to do this would have been apparent to all. But the Bible says nothing about Matthias as being deficient in this regard.

    Sometime after Pentecost, 33 C.E., but before Paul’s conversion, “the twelve” settled a matter involving food distribution, appointing a committee of seven men as administrators. “The apostles” made the appointments by laying their hands on the seven. Matthias was undoubtedly one of “the twelve,” “the apostles,” who did this.—Acts 6:1-6.

    Probably about 34 or 35 C.E., Paul was converted to Christianity. At that time the resurrected Jesus declared to Paul that he was to be sent to bear Jesus’ name to the non-Jewish nations. Thus Paul was to be an “apostle [not merely of a congregation, but an apostle or ‘sent forth one’ of the Lord Jesus Christ] to the nations.” (Acts 9:15; 26:14-18; Gal. 1:15, 16; Rom. 1:5; 11:13; 1 Tim. 2:7) The apostle James was not killed by Herod until about 44 C.E., so it seems that all of the twelve were still alive when Paul received his commission. (Acts 12:1, 2) However, it should be remarked that no apostles were replaced because of death; only Judas was replaced for unfaithfulness. There are no “successors” to the twelve apostles. There is nothing in the Bible suggesting that Paul displaced Matthias or that he replaced any of the other apostles.

    Though Paul acknowledged his apostleship, and had all the powers and qualifications of an apostle of Jesus Christ, being placed in this position in the Christian “body” by Jehovah, Paul never included himself among the twelve. (Gal. 1:1; 2:8; 1 Cor. 9:1, 2; 12:27, 28) Rather, when listing those to whom the resurrected Christ appeared, Paul mentioned himself separately from “all the apostles” and “the twelve.” (1 Cor. 15:5, 7, 8) At 1 Corinthians 15:5 the designation “the twelve” refers to the apostles at a time prior to Matthias’ selection, but according to Acts 1:21, 22 it would include Matthias, who was then associated with the eleven.

    In the description of New Jerusalem, the heavenly city in which Jehovah and Jesus Christ are seen as dwelling, we read: “The wall of the city also had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (Rev. 21:2, 14) The evidence just presented leads to the conclusion that the name of Matthias, not Paul, was on one of the twelve stones. Matthias was an apostle right from the foundation (Pentecost, 33 C.E.) of the spiritual nation of 144,000 making up New Jerusalem, Christ’s “bride.” (2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 21:2) True, Paul wrote many inspired letters. But the first of these came about seventeen years after the spiritual nation was founded, at a time when the nation had already grown to include thousands of persons.

    Therefore, the evidence indicates that Paul was not one of the twelve apostles, the secondary foundations of New Jerusalem. However, he was the special apostle of Christ to the nations, or Gentiles, and this assignment he zealously fulfilled.—2 Tim. 4:7, 8.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    A JW's thinking on the matter.

    So, the conclusion is that by following exegetical principles in a balanced
    way, one can arrive at the correct meaning and understanding. However, we
    have accepted that Christ has chosen a group of men to feed the anointed and
    the great crowd of other sheep in these last days; so we are to stay within
    the confines of that current understanding.
    It isn't that the faithful slave
    will not alter their position when the evidence calls for such, or that the
    great crowd is incapable of arriving at a correct interpretation;
    it is that
    we signed on to let them choose the time to move to an improved
    understanding.



    Suppose a brother or sister is into the deeper studies and they are doing
    some heavy research on one of our held beliefs. Now, they come to an
    understanding that is a little left of center of the faithful slave, or even
    contrary to. So, they write New York and give their evidence. It may be
    20-years before they see a move to make that change if it is in fact
    correct, just like with the 12th apostle question. But, throughout those
    20-years we teach what we all teach, to be one and wait for clarification.
    If it never comes, so be it.



    The other alternative is to be like Christendom and have every member
    choosing what they choose to believe and divide and break off into splinter
    groups. They have 28,000 varieties of Christianity. Each denomination in
    that 28,000 can pick from the theological Christmas Tree: Lutheran
    interpretation, Calvin, Wesleyan, Keswick, Arminian and so on. Now, each
    church in that denomination can be different and pick their own theological
    perspective from that Theological Christmas Tree. Now, each member in each
    of those churches can do the same. So, John Smith leaves the Southern
    Baptist Church on the East side of Pittsburgh, to go to another on the West
    side, because he has moved. But, he finds that their beliefs are all
    different, more liberal and he is dismayed.
    Is this what we want! Thank God for the
    Governing Body!!!!!!
  • willyloman
    willyloman

    "So, John Smith leaves the Southern Baptist Church on the East side of Pittsburgh, to go to another on the West
    side, because he has moved. But, he finds that their beliefs are all
    different, more liberal and he is dismayed."

    And yet, this is exactly what many dubs are doing today. Throughout my active years, and especially (it seemed to me) from the 1990s-on, there was a lot of traffic between congos as dubs moved to another congregation (in the same circuit) seeking greener pastures. There are lots of dubs who will tell you (privately) that the congo they are in is "so much better/worse" than the one they used to belong to.

  • dinah
    dinah

    Paul is the harsh OPPOSITE of Christ........

    that is....if you still believe in this stuff.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    I just want and hope that those that do bible research do continue to do so AND the information you share is not discounted by yourself or others.

    When a JW comes to an understanding about the scriptures they are considered apostate,

    they also are discounted as the GB has everyone convinced that the only way to accurately interpit the scriptures is through them, and they get direction through Holy Spirit.

    This information first printed in 1951 and twenty years later they have NEW LIGHT?

    So, what other things have they gotten wrong?

    The Torture Stake?

    Abstaining from blood?

    Two witness rule?

    I am sure there are more.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    And yet, this is exactly what many dubs are doing today. Throughout my active years, and especially (it seemed to me) from the 1990s-on, there was a lot of traffic between congos as dubs moved to another congregation (in the same circuit) seeking greener pastures. There are lots of dubs who will tell you (privately) that the congo they are in is "so much better/worse" than the one they used to belong to.

    I was reading a JW Board and there was a pretty good discussion on liberal JW's and conservative JW's. There really is a concern that there is an increase in division among JW's with JW's.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    So, what other things have they gotten wrong?

    The Torture Stake?

    Abstaining from blood?

    Two witness rule?

    I am sure there are more.

    Purplesofa,

    More? Yes, much more and on important things critical to our salvation like:

    Where the Kingdom will be and how it will be administered.

    Every disciple should partake of the Emblems as this was a major teaching of Christ.

    Our Lord did not die on Nisan 14 and they do not understand the Passover.

    Women are Equal in the Faith and Paul defended them against the Jews who taught otherwise.

    The Christian Jews in Jerusalem like James were keeping the Law and Paul was opposing them for years.

    They would be considered Apostates by WT standards today and their Letter had no doctrinal value.

    The Gentile times were not 2520 years long but much longer than that.

    Christ did raise his own body from the tomb and used to to teach his disciples for 40 some days.

    And Oh yes, Paul was the 12th Apostle as such an appointment of Apostle could only be made personally and not by vote.

    And much more.

    Joseph

  • civicsi00
    civicsi00

    Yes, there are plenty of things that are still wrong, doctrinally speaking. Of course, some will say it all depends on your "interpretation" of the Bible. But I would venture to say that "most" Christians agree on at least several things, i.e. the bodily resurrection of Christ, saved by faith and not by works, Jesus is Deity, etc.

    I don't think the GB is ever going to change. Some of their unique (and incorrect) doctrines are what keeps them "separate from the world". The biggest problem they face is admitting that they have been wrong for the past 130 years, without causing a split.

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