What's the point?

by Chalam 8 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  So I had a knock at the door this morning. Had a late one on here last night so I was still asleep. Ran down stairs thinking it was a delivery as I was expecting a couple of packages. Turns out it was a couple of witnesses come to tell me their version of the gospel. Through bleary eyes I said to them "you've been here before right?" and they agreed.

  So I told them to give me a couple of minutes to get myself decent and then invited them in for a cup of tea and a chat.

  It was a mother and daughter out on FS. I had talked to the daughter about three years previously when she had come in with a friend of hers and had a chat and tea. I remember, that time I even prayed before we opened the bible and invited the Holy Spirit to come a lead us. So that time we talked about a few things. They told me about their beliefs and I told them of my faith. They asked me if I was born again. I replied, "of course" and took them to John 3. We talked about a few other things and before they left, I urged them to consider that not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter the Kingdom come the great day and to make sure they aren't one of those.

  So I have prayed for them quite a number of times since then.

  Today, the mother was doing a lot of talking. I think I met her on the doorstep on another occasion. She was telling me "how it is" and most of the time I said, well "that is what you believe, not me". We went round the houses for a while. I tried to keep things to the important subjects, principally who is Jesus.

  Anyhow, I was getting nowhere. Even worse I found the daughter now had "answers" for pretty much many of my questions which she didn't three years previously. The mother was keen to leave me the latest WT with all the info regarding why I am not born again and I said "what's the point"? She said I could circle all the things I had issues with and they could come back to discuss. As it was, I had already felt the discussion was a waste of time so I decided I should really cut my losses and let my no be no!

  So I felt pretty bad that I had wasted my time and nothing to show, only things getting worse. On the plus side, I pray seeds have been sow and then start to grow at the appointed time. The other good thing is that God spoke directly to me about them after they left, through Ecclesiastes of all places.

  I had a similar experience with a couple of elderly JWs last year, loads of time and circular debate that goes nowhere. Another waste of time. God spoke to me more powerful when they left, 1 Peter 2 I will never forget which was good.

  My point is this, whether you believe or not, there is little we can do. The JWs are heavily entrenched and they have a lot to loose if they step out of line, raise valid questions or want to leave. Unfortunately they are in the Hotel California :(

  As a believer, I say God can do anything, no problem. That said these speak for themselves.

  John 15:4 John 15:7 Matthew 6:10

  So I pray His will be done, His kingdom come and I put my own agenda aside.

  I understand that most here have family and friends who as "in" so for you there is plenty of point to not giving up hope and I encourage you to not give up hope. However, do you sometimes think "what's the point"?

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  PrimateDave

  Stephen, I suppose you are to be commended for your attempt to have a discussion with them. As to the futility of the effort, well who is to say?

  In my own position when I finally left the org, I simply refused to discuss my reasons. I already knew that to a Witness, discussion is often a one way affair. They tell you what to believe, and you're supposed to agree unconditionally. Giving them points that you disagree with is just an opportunity for them to show you the error of your way.

  Now it isn't always like that because there are many Witnesses who have doubts. Perhaps the key is to somehow determine your prospects for success early on in order to not waste time with well indoctrinated persons.

  Dave
• 

  lurk3r

  So I felt pretty bad that I had wasted my time and nothing to show

  You didn't waste your time Chalam, not in my opinion. You spent it talking about your faith, it was good for you; and for them. It makes your faith stronger, and perhaps you may have "left a little something" for them to think about. As frustrating as it may have been "going in circles", you never know if you may have played a part in the bigger picture of their lives.

  It seems very fitting, that I take the time out to thank someone. 18 years ago...before the Proclaimers book came out, I attended a District Convention in Toronto. Walking outside of the Gardens with big plaques, were some apostates. No one needed to tell me they were evil...cause i already knew. As much as I WANTED to look up at their signs, I couldn't bring myself. Perhaps this apostate sensed this, and he, along with his companion walked behind me and had a "conversation" with each other. I tried my best to ignore and shut out what they were saying but there was one word that stuck out at the time. Beth-Sarim.(or is that 2 words?lol) These slanderous liars were trying to break my faith. They were evil. Satan was using THEM to get to ME! I dare not breathe the word Beth-Sarim.

  Im sure ANYONE who brought that name up, and the story behind Beth-Sarim, BEFORE the Proclaimers book was published,was tried and publicly "executed" right there on the spot. Years later and ONLY to cover their ass, Beth Sarim gets put to paper and print, "officially". But just barely...since it was official now, but not the whole story behind it, I looked it up on the internet, cause deep down, I wanted more. Even after reading it, I STILL couldnt believe it all. I have "hung" onto the "truth" in one way or another in my mind ...until now. Thanks to you all and a thank you to the "apostate" that originally planted the seed. You KNEW it would get to me...you didn't know it would take so long.

  lurk3r

  I wrote that a while back...you just reminded me of it, and i thought i would share it again...you never know.

  Mind me not replying to the thread that we were chatting on before Chalam..ill get back there one of these days soon...not avoiding it, Im just letting it come to me. Actually, I DID reply to it, and then i hit a wrong key and lost it all. Grrr. Ill get back.

  So Chalam. When you talked with these ones, did you just use your bible? Did you arm yourself with some of the things you have learned here? Not to beat a dead horse, but "experience" counts. As powerful as the bible is, it often works better to "step out of the box" to get your point across.Quote as MANY scriptures as you like, and your very likely to get nowhere. once again, no ffense

  lurk3r
• 

  sammielee24

  However, do you sometimes think "what's the point"?

  Definitely.

  There was a long time, JW couple over a few weeks back who we took a study with. We spent 3 hours with them and I openly but rationally and calmly, explained why I did not believe that the society had the truth. I accompanied my explanation with some personal stories whereby, the JW lady began crying. I had touched a nerve - I could see that...however, even after her tears and even after her admittance that the society changed their point of view constantly and even after she admitted that some harsh things have been done ....she still elected to dry her tears, put away her emotions and the memories that caused her those tears, put away the realization and recognization that the society has and still causes devastation ...and chose to remain true to them.

  Her reasons are personal and I understand that they have much to do with her family inside. Her choice therefore, is to be part of an organization that she knows wreaks tragedy for many people and to still try to get innocents entrapped. I don't feel sorry for her..I do however say to myself 'what's the point'? It is what it is ...sammieswife.
• 

  moshe

  Sometimes we have to think outside the box.

  Mr. JW says, "I have the truth" and Mr Evangelical Christian says, "I have the truth"- round and round they go- it's almost always a standoff. Nobody wants to see the elephant in the room- the one wearing the big sign that says, " You're both wrong".
• 

  Mrs. Fiorini

  Your story reminded me of an experience I had when I was a pioneer. We were invited in by a lovely young Christian woman. She was so kind, accepting of us, and enthusiastic about her beliefs. We had a conversation where she shared her faith with us in a way that also accepted ours. While we had no success in trying to interest her in our version of "the truth", it was a pleasant conversation for all of us. When I left her home I remember thinking, "She is just like me, except my religion is the truth and her religion is wrong."

  I always remembered her and what a beautiful person she was. Sometimes I would meet others who I knew were good people, but who I also knew would never convert to my "true" religion. It would bother me to think that Jehovah would destroy such persons simply because they mistakenly got involved with the wrong religious organization.

  All those incidents were filed away in the back of my mind and eventually reached critical mass when I finally was able to see my way out of the WT.
• 

  quietlyleaving

  I'll always remember my conversation with a born again christian. It was on a council estate and a very zealous JW family lived a few doors away (they are no longer witnesses ), so perhaps he knew quite a lot about JW beliefs. The 2 verses he showed me from his bible and which I read from my own and then in his bible were John20:28 & 52. I knew how to reason with him on those verses but he didn't allow me to go round and round the garden saying that those points were all he wanted to discuss with me but he gave me sufficient time to see if I'd got it. The conversation left unsettling questions in my mind.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  Thanks for all the posts so far :)

  lurk3r-I wrote that a while back...you just reminded me of it, and i thought i would share it again...you never know.

  Great story, many thanks for sharing. It just goes to show how important the words we speak are, positive and negative.

  lurk3r-Mind me not replying to the thread that we were chatting on before Chalam..ill get back there one of these days soon...not avoiding it, Im just letting it come to me. Actually, I DID reply to it, and then i hit a wrong key and lost it all. Grrr. Ill get back.

  Arrrrgh! I hate it when that happens :( I'll PM you my email incase it returns to you or for anything else.

  lurk3r-So Chalam. When you talked with these ones, did you just use your bible? Did you arm yourself with some of the things you have learned here? Not to beat a dead horse, but "experience" counts. As powerful as the bible is, it often works better to "step out of the box" to get your point across.Quote as MANY scriptures as you like, and your very likely to get nowhere. once again, no ffense

  Yes I talked about my beliefs, theirs and used the bible to see if we could resolve anything. After all, we both believe in the bible and think we are following it! However, at the end of the day we are like chalk and cheese, we agree on that!

  I did mention 1914 in the course of our discussions. I said the WT had previously said this was going to be Armageddon and since that didn't happen they changed it to Christ's "invisible return". They told me the WT were "imperfect men" and made mistakes.

  I pointed out the verses where Christ says clearly that the whole world will see His return. Also that the Angel said to the disciples that Christ would return the same way He had just left i.e. physically! However, more "answers" and "reasoning". Well I pray that one of these things with indeed be a Beth-Sarim for them.

  The propaganda war has stepped up considerably. The internet has thrown open access to stuff and the WT, although have been slow to act now seem to be counteracting the flow of truth with "answers" and "trolls". Expect more "answers" to appear in the mouths and posts of the faithful JWs and trolls appear posting absolute junk trying to discredit forums such as this one.

  Moshe-Sometimes we have to think outside the box.

  Mr. JW says, "I have the truth" and Mr Evangelical Christian says, "I have the truth"- round and round they go- it's almost always a standoff. Nobody wants to see the elephant in the room- the one wearing the big sign that says, " You're both wrong".

  Of course we all think we are right, the atheist, the buddhist, the mormon, the JW, the born again believer. To be wrong says we are either deluded or else living a lie. There is a new option which says "anything goes" and "we all are right" and to those who believe it, this is "the truth".

  I believe this, Beth-Sarim and the like are great, it shows you clearly what is a lie and what is false. Many JWs still need to make this connection. However, it does not answer the second half of the question, what is true? There are many ex JWs who have a heart to seek God and being a believer, my heart is for them to find Him, i.e. Jesus. There are maybe more who are either so hurt by their experience of being a JW that they vow never to get tricked again and fight the good fight against "religion" and "god".

  sammilee24-she still elected to dry her tears, put away her emotions and the memories that caused her those tears, put away the realization and recognization that the society has and still causes devastation ...and chose to remain true to them

  she took the blue pill :(

  url

  quietlyleaving-I'll always remember my conversation with a born again christian. It was on a council estate and a very zealous JW family lived a few doors away (they are no longer witnesses ), so perhaps he knew quite a lot about JW beliefs. The 2 verses he showed me from his bible and which I read from my own and then in his bible were John20:28 & 52. I knew how to reason with him on those verses but he didn't allow me to go round and round the garden saying that those points were all he wanted to discuss with me but he gave me sufficient time to see if I'd got it.

  Awesome! That guy was probably listening more Holy Spirit than his own understanding, unlike myself.

  So Jesus is Thomas' God, not "god" right? What was the second verse? Maybe 25? 52 doesn't exist.

  Keep 'em coming!

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  moshe

  Chalam,

  All organzied religion is a taught experience. It starts with indoctrination at a young age- " this holy writing is from God", "this is the true religion", etc.

  If we throw away everything that we have accepted from 3rd parties and reject anecdotal evidence and stories of faith related to your religion, then you aren't left with much to go on.

  Which is why so many end up in the clutches of organized religions- it's convenient, socially accepted and easier than figuring out life's big questions on your own. Humans have a herd mentality and seldom go against the group. Some ex-JW's have decided to go back to the beginning and search for answers about questions of faith on their own, using the same test for truth that led them to reject their membership in Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place. They might still be looking as a result. I don't see any problem with that or any problem for somebody who decides to join a mainstream religion, as long a no one his harmed or fleeced in the process. If JW's would stop shunning family members, ex-members and killing their kids over blood transfusion rules, then i would personally have no gripe with them at all. The world needs carpet cleaners, roofers, etc. and JW's are good at that.