I Am Searching For The Dolphins In The Sea...

hillary_step

Hello,

'I only know that peace will come, when all our hate is gone...I am searching for the dolphins in the sea...' A line from 'Dolphins', rendered at its best by the late Tim Buckley.

There has been much bad blood being spilled in waves on these pages the past few days. Friends have been set against friends, reputations maligned and real tears shed, it is a truly painful scene to behold.

Trying to ride the avalanche of emotions that sweep us along in these word-wars seems to be impossible without leaving behind a trail of sadness and hurt.

So I now pose a question. The WTS would have us believe that it is not possible for persons holding fundamentally differing viewpoints to be true friends, and that inevitably they will fight. They call this ‘disunity’. On this premise they develop the principle of the conditioning that they call ‘unity’, and using this system they are, it has to be admitted, remarkably successful at keeping a superficial peace between ‘friends’.

Do you believe that it is possible to be a friend of somebody who vehemently disagrees with ones viewpoint on a matter? If so how would you suggest a person handles such a disagreement on a venue such as this?

I will plant a flag in my own territory and say that I feel that disagreements that obviously involve two individuals, especially ones with a ‘history’, should be taken off-line and dealt with there, but as ever I am open to persuasion.

Best regards -- HS

Lionel_P_Hartley

Hillary,

It is possible, I believe, to have friends with whom you disagree strongly on a number of subjects. It is, not, however, possible to have friends that lie to you so as to support their views, no matter how strongly held.

LPH

hillary_step

Hi Lionel,

Are you in the UK? Perhaps we know one another.

HS

TR

On this premise they develop the principle of the conditioning that they call ‘unity’, and using this system they are, it has to be admitted, remarkably successful at keeping a superficial peace between ‘friends’.

Although I agree to a point, I have witnessed many a fued within the WTS confines. I have seen "brothers" using lethal force against one another. I have seen racism, slander, dishonest business dealings, etc. Those within the WTS are far from "united". What I have seen first hand within the JW community is far worse that what I've seen on this forum.

TR

I'm gonna make mince meat outta that Osama!

tyydyy

HS,

It is possible for friends to disagree strongly but it is not possible for friends to disagree then call names, belittle and show hatred and still be called friends. Do you know anyone like that? Do you know anyone that uses name calling as an arguement? Do you know anyone that calls everyone who disagrees a moron, idiot or braindead?

I do.

And guess what? It's not Fred Hall that I'm speaking of. I'll give you three guesses.

TimB

GatoCat

Do you believe that it is possible to be a friend of somebody who vehemently disagrees with ones viewpoint on a matter?

Yes. I have good friends who disagree with my views, sometimes vehemently. I am speaking of everyday life, not of internet-forum friends.

How would you suggest a person handles such a disagreement on a venue such as this?

If both friends are able to keep the person separate from the belief, then it is possible to have discussions--even heated discussions--about the issue. Tempers may flare, but mature people will realize when that is happening and will excuse themselves and wait until they calm down to continue.

If either one of the friends is incapable of keeping the belief separate from the person, then the friendship is best maintained by not venturing into a discussion on that topic.

In recent years, as I've developed more and more experience at separating the person from the speech or behavior, it has become an automatic thing, a habit of mine; a way of thinking. It is disturbing and irritating to me when people assume they are seeing a personal attack simply because a person has presented a contrary view, or has exposed a flaw in another's view.

It is also disturbing and irritating to me to see blatantly insulting speech used in addressing others over differences of view or belief. Often, the only recourse in such a situation is to withdraw from the conversation. This may appear to some as defeat; undoubtedly the one casting the insults will pronounce it a victory. Situations like these are when it becomes necessary to fall back upon your own knowledge of what is true. You know that there has been unwarranted public ugliness, and that some observers have been fooled or swayed by the ugliness. Yet you know also that you have presented your position respectfully and well, and that readers/observers who are perceptive will know that you maintained your dignity and did not compromise your principles of respectful interaction. Now is the time to step away, regardless of the fact that your scruple-free opponent may gloat and taunt. Now is the time to behave as the one who is in the right, and to do so calmly, with conviction.

Tough assignment. The person who pulls it off is truly a mature and insightful person.

COMF

patio34

Ah-h HS, thanks for this peaceable thread. As St. Francis of Assisi prayed "Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace." It's a breath of fresh air on this thread. I think I may take a hiatus and read more books for a few days.

I don't have an opinion on your question about friends disagreeing. Or, it it's worth the sacrifice in one's individuality to achieve peace as the WTS says should be done at all cost.

I don't know the answer. Maybe there isn't one. Maybe these eruptions have always happened from time to time in the normal course of human events. After all, this DB could be just a microcosm of the larger picture of humans.

In Jared Diamond's book (either Guns, Germs & Steel or the other one), he makes the point that when people lived in small tribes, that often when one tribe encountered strangers or another tribe, there was likely to be a death or two. In a tribe, likely everyone was related by blood or marriage, making peaceable relations. But upon meeting another tribe, watch out!

Then humans started living in larger cities, and could afford to have police, governments, armies to keep the peace--mostly.

I don't think what goes on here is unusual viewed from that perspective. If one compares it to the WTS where everyone mostly accepts everything they're told, it does look pretty chaotic. But not when compared to the larger picture of human history.

Thanks for this opportunity for me to express myself. I feel much better!

Always enjoy your thoughts, HS.

Felicitations,
Pat

hillary_step

Comf,

It is also disturbing and irritating to me to see blatantly insulting speech used in addressing others over differences of view or belief. Often, the only recourse in such a situation is to withdraw from the conversation. This may appear to some as defeat; undoubtedly the one casting the insults will pronounce it a victory. Situations like these are when it becomes necessary to fall back upon your own knowledge of what is true.

Comf, this is without doubt one of the most sensible statements posted this weekend. Thank you.

Pat and Others,

Many thanks for you input into this thread. 'Being right', sometimes at all costs, does seem to be tied up with each one of our hearts. I like to think that along the way we learn the life skills needed to make peace rather choose war.

I happen to think that if you rounded up all the truly evil people in the world you would probably have 250,000 people causing the pain to 6 billion. Pleased to say that the ratio on this board is around the same!

Best regards - HS

ISP

The Dolphins were in the bay after being shut out by the 49ers.

ISP

I Am Searching For The Dolphins In The Sea...

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