What does the Bible Really Teach...chapter 8, God's Kingdom

by insearchoftruth 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    My wife has invited the sister she is studying with and her husband over on Tuesday evening so I can follow along with her 'Bible Study - gag' since I may be very interested in this chapter. I have read the notes from Wilbur Lingle on freeminds and they are helpful, but am wondering if there are any other good questions I can ask. This is the first time I have met this gal and her husband and I do not want to come off as 'MAJOR APOSTATE', as I am pretty sure I did with a previous study sister, I want to keep the door open to ask questions and raise some thoughts.

    Since this chapter talks about the rule in heaven, it naturally leads to a discussion of the 144K, Michael, lots of other strange things that I think my wife does not really know what they teach. One of my thoughts is to talk about how one gets annointed and how important the anointed are...knowing that in June the WT greatly diminishes the value and stature of this class.....any thoughts.....

    I don't want to get to far on Tuesday, hope to somewhat stall the progress, I know that I will be offered my own BS.....NO WAY, could not stomach it.......

    You are all great...waiting to hear about the wonderful special talk, her congos was today on true religion, will be interesting to see if she says much at all......

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,

    beyond all the standard biblical truth about "one flock, one shepherd" John 10:16 and that they will be one John 17:11 John 17:22 there are some other things to consider.

    You could pose some innocent questions regarding the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God". No doubt, JWs believe 144 000 will go to the former right?

    Now Matthew is the only one who uses the "kingdom of heaven" term. However, he talks about the very same things as the other gospel writers use the term "kingdom of God" for. See these examples.

    Matthew 5:3 (New International Version)

    3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Luke 6:20 (New International Version)

    20 Looking at his disciples, he said:
    "Blessed are you who are poor,
    for yours is the kingdom of God.

    Matthew 13:11 (New International Version)

    11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

    Mark 4:11 (New International Version)

    11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

    Matthew 13:31 (New International Version)

    The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast
    31 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field.
    Mark 4:30 (New International Version)

    The Parable of the Mustard Seed
    30 Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it?
    Matthew 19:14 (New International Version)

    14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

    Mark 10:14 (New International Version)

    14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

    So it is clear, the "kingdom of heaven" is one and the same as the "kingdom of God". No distinction between those in it, how to get into it, what to do in it, what it is etc.

    Thus, this is true

    John 10:16 (New International Version)

    16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    Who are the other sheep (Jesus was talking to Jews at the time)? The Gentiles. Are the Jews cut off?

    Ephesians 3:6 (New International Version)

    6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

    Romans 11:1-2 (New International Version)

    Romans 11
    The Remnant of Israel
    1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel
    Romans 11:11 (New International Version)

    Ingrafted Branches
    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! All the best, Stephen

  • Blithe Freshman
    Blithe Freshman

    Chapter Eight

    What Is God’s Kingdom?

    Much of what is written in this chapter you will not have to discuss in detail because most Christians believe in a Kingdom in which Christ will rule over the earth for 1000 years and at the end Satan will be defeated. However, the major difference between Bible-believing Christians and the Jehovah’s Witnesses is “who” reigns over this Kingdom. Christians believe that it is the resurrected Christ, who is both man and God, who reigns over the Millennial Kingdom. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that it is Michael the archangel (though they never clearly state this), who was re-created three days after the death of Jesus, and that along with 144,000 assistants he will rule over this Kingdom. But the Society is very deceptive in the way it presents this material, so you will need to be on your guard and probe deeply to understand what the Society really believes. A number of the following questions are designed to uncover this deception and make the Witness think. Maybe the one you are speaking with is not aware of this deception.

    · · ·

    Page 77, paragraph 5. “From where will God’s Kingdom rule? Well, where is Jesus? You will remember learning that he was put to death on a torture stake, and then he was resurrected.”

    Question #1: I am utterly confused by this statement! I have come to the conclusion from reading this book that the Watchtower Society believes that Jesus Christ was “only a human man.” It further believes that when Jesus died His body went back into the elements or became gas. It believes that there is nothing spiritual in man that lives on after death. It believes that the human body of Jesus was not resurrected. So from what I understand of the teachings of the Watchtower Society, the answer to the question, “Where is Jesus?” would have to be “He is dead, the body has disintegrated; he will never been seen again.” Will you please tell me how Jesus Christ can be both dead and at the same time alive?

    Response: (At this point they might tell you that it was Michael who was resurrected, but maybe they will not. If they do not, then ask the following question.)

    Question #2: It seems to me that I heard or read somewhere that the Watchtower Society believes that at the birth (or conception) of Jesus, that Michael the Son willed himself out of existence (how he did this is never explained) and then three days after the death of Jesus Michael was re-created--so it is really the archangel Michael who will reign over the Kingdom and not the human Jesus, since he is no longer in existence according to the Watchtower Society. Is this true?

    Response: (If they answer “Yes,” you can ask the following question.)

    Question #3: Why doesn’t the Watchtower Society come out and state this very plainly instead of beating around the bush and giving non-Witnesses the false impression that it really was Jesus?

    Response: I don’t know.

    · · ·

    Page 77, paragraph 6. “What makes Jesus an outstanding King? For one thing, he will never die. Comparing Jesus with human kings, the Bible calls him ‘the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light.’ (1 Timothy 6:16) This means that all the good that Jesus does will last. And he will do great and good things.”

    Question #1: Why does the Watchtower Society say that Jesus will be “an outstanding King” (using a capital “K”) when Jesus is dead and will never been seen again?

    Response: I don’t know.

    Question #2: I feel this paragraph is very deceptive. If you do not read it carefully you will miss what is inferred. This paragraph uses the word “immortality” and would leave one under the impression that the Society believes that Jesus Himself was “immortal” when it really has nothing to do with Jesus but is actually speaking about the works that Jesus accomplished. The Jesus of the Watchtower Society is not immortal ? because He died and ceased to exist. Michael of the Watchtower Society is not immortal ? because he tasted death by committing suicide. Would you not agree that this is deceptive?

    Response: (You probably won’t receive one, but hopefully you have made him or her think.)

    Note: I want to point out that according to the Society, not even the work that Jesus did is “immortal” and “will last.” It claims that Jesus provided a ransom so that most people would be resurrected and given a second chance on the new earth, but in 1914 the ransom was canceled and so is no longer in force. Since that date, Jesus plays no part in man’s eternal destiny.

    · · ·

    Page 79, paragraph 10, lines 2-3. “For one thing, Jesus knows what it is like to be human and to suffer.”

    Question: I am utterly bewildered at such a statement. The Watchtower Society does not believe that the human Jesus, who lived upon this earth, rose from the dead and went to heaven! The Society teaches that it is the archangel Michael who will reign over the Kingdom. Michael never had an earthly life! He never even saw the suffering that Jesus went through because he was not conscious of anything during the 33½ years Jesus lived upon this earth! Anything the Michael of the Watchtower Society knows of the earthly suffering of Jesus would have to be “secondhand,” something that was told him. How could this book make such a statement that is so obviously false?

    Response: (Probably none.)

    · · ·

    Page 82, paragraph 20. “.”Another problem is that many people do wicked things. They lie, cheat, and commit immorality. They do not want to do God’s will. People who do wicked things will be destroyed during God’s war of Armageddon

    Question: All down through the history of mankind humans have told lies, cheated, and committed immorality, yet the Watchtower Society claims that since God is “loving” that most of these wicked people who have ever lived will be given a second chance on the new earth. What happens to the “ransom” at the time when Armageddon occurs? (Witnesses will not clearly admit that the ransom has already been canceled--in 1914.) Doesn’t this make God partial in that He will destroy the people at the time of Armageddon while giving most other people a second chance?

    Response: (You will probably not receive a very good answer.)

    · · ·

    Comment: Page 84, paragraph 21, line 8. “The earth will be made into a paradise.” I note from this statement that the Watchtower Society recognizes that the new earth will not become a paradise overnight by some miracle of Yahweh, nor will it be something like Jesus said about heaven being built by Him. The new earth is something that must be built by hard manual labor taking many hundreds of years.

    · · ·

    Page 84, paragraph 23. “For how long? During the 19 th century, sincere Bible students calculated that the waiting period would end in 1914. World events that began in 1914 confirm that the calculation of these sincere Bible students was correct.”

    Question: This is a very confusing statement! It seems to me that I heard or read that originally the Watchtower Society taught that Christ began to reign in 1874 and that in 1914 Christ was actually to come back to earth and take everyone to heaven. It was not until 1943 that the Watchtower Society recognized that the “sincere Bible students” had been greatly mistaken and Christ should not have been expected to come back in 1914, but began to reign in heaven in 1914. Why doesn’t this book mention this mistake? (Proof that the Society taught the 1874 date is documented in: Studies in the Scriptures—The Time Is at Hand, series 2, 1889, p. 239; Thy Kingdom Come, series 3, 1911, page 234; The Finished Mystery, series 7, 1917, p. 386; Creation, 1927, p. 312; and Prophecy, 1929, pages 65-66.)

    · · ·

    Page 95, paragraph 23, lines 10-11. “We can also say with certainty that soon God’s Kingdom will act to cause God’s will to be done on earth.”

    Question: Will you please help me to understand this statement? The little I know about the Watchtower Society, it first taught that Christ would be returning in 1874 to set up this Kingdom. We know that it did not happen. Then it was to occur in 1914, but this did not happen. So now for over 130 years the Watchtower Society has been teaching that the Kingdom will “with certainty soon” be set up! Since the Society had been saying the same thing for so long and it has not happened, how can it continue to make such a positive promise?

  • Blithe Freshman
    Blithe Freshman

    Hi,

    The above post is from a google doc I have on the whole book.I got it from the EX Witnesses for Jesus convention. There are pointers in the beginning on how to study with JW's. It's free to copy pass along. If you would like me to forward the whole thing pm me and I'll give you my e-mail.

    Blithe

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    thanks Blithe, the document also resides on freeminds.

    Chalam, great thoughts, may be able to fold some of this into a discussion as well........

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    One more bttt, these folks are coming over this evening!!

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    OK here goes, I hope I am not too late!

    Luke 17:20-21 (New International Version)
    The Coming of the Kingdom of God

    20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

    So what is the Kingdom of God that is within you or among you?
    John 14:15-20 (New International Version)

    Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

    15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    So yes, the Kingdom of God is where His Spirit reigns. Where Jesus is Lord. See here also
    Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

    9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

    All the best,

    Stephen

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