Hi Amnesian: I made a separate post to you since the topic is getting buried down the board. But, you raise a number of issues that deserve some more discussion. First, it was not my goal to anger anyone, but I perceive that the anger comes from past experience, and my post seems to have facilitated that to the surface. Second, I didn't intend to offend you, and if I did, I am sorry. However, I believe there are some points in this issue you are not correctly seeing for what they are:
You said,
"No, as a matter of fact, I haven’t, lacking the requisite Y chromosome and all. That left me with nothing to do but merely provide 25+ years emotional and administrative support to a very prominent man who has been nearly used up by the WTS."Though you didn't exactly say your husband was an Elder, am I to conclude you were an Elder's wife? You supported him emotionally and administratively? You gave aid and comfort to the wicked enemy? Why did you not immediately divorce him and renounce this wickedness? The point of my questions are not to stir up anger or a fight, but to show that we each have our own burdens and circumstance to bear.
Elders have wives, children, and often other family in the organization. When they come to their senses about the religion, they have to assess their individual situation, and make choices that work for them and their families the same as any JW who is not an Elder.
You said,
"As regards many of them, my experience (and from who else’s would you expect me to speak?) suggests that the very nature and rules, of which you speak, of this organization that disdains intelligence and education (which certainly qualifies too many of these men!) seduces with the hypnotic allure of power the below-average, insecure, marginally-literate, semi-man who peers in from the fringes of society with virtually no hope of being employed as a leader of any sort in any progressive organization."When I began my justice Series in the Summer of 2000, this was among my main points. It was the revelation of some of the molestation issues that brought about the emergence of SilentLambs. The reason that he was able to take the issue farther than me is that the media was more interested in an "Active" Elder and PO. The media talked to me, and I have supported SilentLambs since the beginning of this issue. But, he has been in the position to attract more attention to the issue. While he resigned as an Elder, he stayed in the organization, which has given him an advantage. Lee Elder did likewise when he exposed the Blood issue.
I must caution that not all JW Elders are incompetant or poorly educated. Many of these Elders also hold good positions in secular society. And many would go even farther in the world if their JW beliefs did not discourage them from doing so.
You said, "Only the WTS with so few men and so much work they will only allow men to do will employ these hapless misfits who, once these lay mitts on the coveted prize of P-O-W-E-R, they are anything but the “average JW Publisher.”
Time for a reality check: The overwhelming number of JW men who reach out to be Elders are "NOT" seeking some kind of "coveted POWER". This view displays ignorance of reality. The average JW Elder, if they are a true believer, consciencously reaches out because they want to help serve the cause, believing this serves the best interest of other JWs. Privately, these men, and me included, often want the validation and acceptance that comes with being 'appointed.'
Your Statement about POWER: This is understandable because the JW religion does wrongfully keep women in a place of inequality, and subjected to men in a disproportionate power share, men = 99.999% and women = 0.001%. And, when a person is in a position where they wield little or no power, they often see everything and every motive as a power play against them. Whereas the average JW Elder is still very subjected to the power of the organization, and is not normally seeking power. Helpless to change things, many people are driven to other extremes. The radical Al Qaeda and Taliban, in an effort to get rid of the power they hated, became as obnoxious and abusive themselves as those they condemn and fought off.
Sometimes, as ex-JWs, it becomes very easy to vent extreme anger and extreme views because we have resented the power of the WTS leaders over our lives ... a power that we unwittingly gave them ... and if we are not careful, thoughtful, and take things slowly, we can inadvertently become just as bad.
You continued regarding Elders:
"They have far exceeded their grandest expectations in life and proceed to relish the experience at the expense of those who cannot or will not “meet WT rules.”Again, this is not the reality of JW men who become Elders. Maybe for some it is true. But not the vast majority.
You noted:
"As for those who actually do start out “no different [from] the average JW Publisher” and are decent, well-intentioned men, a considerable percentage of them must relinquish those humble and noble anchors if they are going to avoid losing their “privileges” --- which, unfortunately, becomes the goal that supercedes all others for many of these men."Well stated. I would only say that the vast majority of JW men are decent before they become Elders, and a large majority remain decent men after they are appointed Elders, though misguided. I agree with you that the WTS system is its own enemy, and that many of these good men engage in a struggle between acting in good conscience and retaining priveleges. Though the lines are so easily blurred, that they are not normally conscious of the struggle, not until they reach the point of leaving the religion altogether.
You noted,
"It’s one thing to be “caught up” as one of the blinded ignoranti confined to the general admission seats without a clue other than the lofty claims colorfully displayed in the printed Playbill. Quite another thing when your seats get upgraded to reserved orchestra where you’re afforded a closer view of what’s really occurring on stage."In any organization, rank has its priveleges. What else can I say about this? I was not among the Elders who got such seats, but once in a while, I got to shake the hand of some of the big shots. LOL
You said,
" --- and elders’ Playbills have a lot more notes in the margins plus direct contact with those who are in direct contact with the playwright."Yes. This shocked me too when I became an Elder, and discovered the material given to them apart from the general Publishers. I have posted about the Elder Ministry Schools often held at Circuit Assembly Halls where Elders have to have literal "tickets" in hand to attend. (Ostensibly to keep out apostates and 'others' not invited. But, I can say that much of the 'secret' material is BS, and is merely condensed from material given to the average JW. But, I also have to admit, and have agreed with other ex-Elders that much of what is said to Elders is done 'orally' so that the average Publisher can never check it out. These 'oral' instructions always irritated me.
You quoted me where I said, "Many non-Elder JWs do not believe in the organization, and by your standard, they are all therefore culpable. I think this is far too harsh, and does not allow for gray areas.
You followed by saying,
"Not what I said. Non-elder JWs have no official power over the lives of others. In what way did I state or imply that they were deputized to inflict the same level of harm on the lives of the flock as those who allow themselves to be appointed and used to judge and, in even their own minds, determine the everlasting fate of their fellows?"I agree that you did not directly say anything about non-Elder JWs. I was using your standard to extend the same logic to the average JW. But again, I see your theme of "Power" behind this. No, the average JW does not have as "much" power, but they abuse what power they have just the same.
Here is what average JWs do that make them as guilty: They "Report" on other JWs, turning them in for every conceivable offense, and even inventing offenses and lying to the Elders to betray someone they do not like. I can say that not a week went by where I was not being called on the phone or pulled to the side, often by someone in the X Chromosome class, to tell me some BS about some other brother or sister, and how I needed to look into it.
Average non-Elder JWs have enourmous power over their children, their Bible studies and often hurt and manipulate their non-JW families. While you did not say it, I did ... by applying your standard, I simply carried it to its logical to its conclusion. The shoe hurts when it is on your foot too ... and as I said, we are ALL pups from the same bitch. The shoe hurt me too ... and I finally had to admit it. Just as you and many other ex-JWs need to admit that in your own way, and with the influence and power you did have, you are just as guilty.
With respect to atrosities and harm, you said:
"I need to state here that I know that the words “abuse” and “atrocities” are highly-charged terms that automatically conjure the spectre of sexual molestation and hemorrhagic deaths in today’s environment, but when I used the terms in my post, I was speaking of abuses and atrocities of less spectacular, but no less evil and harmful, kinds."Fair enough. At times, I have stepped into the highly charged pits, and pissed people off, though unintended. But, you did not piss me off in this case. I just wanted to try and effect some clarity.
You said,
"I know well of your posts, Amazing, so I feel confident it is not your conscious intent to be disingenuous here. That said, I have to wonder that you still suffer some measure of self-delusion about what the real situation is for average JWs and your contribution to that situation in your former role among them as an elder if you can honestly suggest that JWs do not have a gun to their heads. They do."Guns to the head: I have long made the argument that the threat of total shunning is as "effective" as having a 'gun' pointed at our heads. We all, even the men on the GB, had the same proverbial 'gun' at our head. As Ray Franz stated in his book, we are 'victims of victims and followers of followers', and it takes courage and good sense to be able to leave the JWs on our own. That said, there is still a "very distinct difference" between this and having a literal gun pointed to your head. I have had a literal gun pointed at my head three times in my life, and I can say that there is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between the JW proverbial gun, and the cold steel guns that shoots live bullets! My butt still slams shut even thinking about the times a literal gun was at my head ... one of those times was when I was going door to door as a JW!
You continued,
"At the orders of HQ---their gun to your head I guess is fair to concede---you and all elders held guns to the heads of publishers. With Jehovah’s name on the bullets."And, Average JWs point their proverbial guns at their families, dads at wives, mothers at children. And JWs do this to non-JW families with shunnings, because 'worldly' family are "bad associations.' In this regard, average JWs are just as bad ... and that is why average JWs can get promoted to Elder, or Sister to Pioneer, or Pionner Elder and his Pioneer Wife to Bethel.
You said,
"What exactly do you think it to be when you swell your chest, muster your full height, mount that platform, take hold of that authoritative podium --- which none but an elder or one in training can do --- and dictate to us God’s orders as issued from the mouths of the Brooklyn crime bosses? Perhaps you’re claiming a different experience for yourself from the godzillions of elders I’ve known. If so, fine, but ½ or better of the ones I’ve had the misery of knowing --- and I mean it when I say my husband is 100% excepted --- trampled down whatever proddings of conscience they might have experienced and never flinched in dishing out the spiritual slop exactly from the Society’s cauldrons exactly as they concocted it --- no matter how repugnant or outlandish."And average JWs lapped it up and did not complain, but went out to the innocent public and spewed the same BS in everyone's face at the doors and on Bible studies, and at their children ... thay ARE, therefore, just as guilty as the men who are likewise misled who stand on the platform and give talks. And few of these men go up to the platform with swelled chests ... rather, they are often just as apprehensive as when going door to door ... it is boring, and painful when one is not a good speaker, and JWs are sleeping in the audience, and yet they give talks because it is required in addition to door knocking.
You continued,
"Men that I knew to be relatively decent stood on platforms with their spiritual shotguns aimed at our heads and hearts. If they disagreed with the swill, not losing their “privileges” superceded their concerns for our spiritual nutrition and health."And Average JWs, took the swill and went out to share it with the unsuspecting Public, luring more into the organization by deception. Yes, the average JW often knows quite well they are LYING at the door when they use the "slippery language" learned at the Service Meeting, training them to lie. The average JW is just as guilty! No excuses, no exceptions ... WE are all pups from the same bitch ... and ONLY when you, me, and others can admit this can we get off of our self-righteous pedestal, get real, and then start to heal.
You said,
"Every single man who’s ever served on a judicial committee --- of any kind --- has inflicted harm on others. Period."And every JW who participates in the shunning of those that Elders shoot with the proverbial gun, is just as guilty - PERIOD! This is what I mean about getting off of the high horse. MANY average JWs know full well, via Elder's wives gossiping, or because they are aware of the facts and also gossip, exactly why others are DF'd, and as a result, they know of much of the unfairness, but nonetheless, when average JWs shun, and look down on DF'd people, they become just as guilty ... otherwise, why do they not speak against this?
You said,
"If you want to plead ignorance of that harm, plead it to Jehovah or whomever you believe in. It’s just my opinion but I strongly suspect there is no man who’s served as a elder for any considerable period of time who doesn’t get to the point of realizing that something very wrong is going on in the organization. Some don’t care, some resign and/or get out, some try to tell themselves they’re performing some greater good for their brothers by staying. Whatever. It’s still terrible harm that one should be ashamed of ever trying to excuse or minimize."I agree: And that is why I left, and went to the authorities to report the JW molesters. I wish at the time I would have done as SilentLambs did, and stayed in as an Elder, and went to the media ... for by staying an Elder for a time, he has accomplished MORE good than I did. I have been actively supporting this issue behind the scenes, talking to the media, and directing people to legal help ... but, when I left in 1992, I did not take this the way I wish I would have.
However, what you say about Elders can be said about the average JW, and it amazes me (that is how I selected my handle, because many things "Amaze" me about the JW religion) that many ex-JWs do not see thier own dirty hands in this ... and try to load all the blame on Elders.
You said,
"I was a JW. Thank God, at least, never an elder, but I am still both culpable and guilty. And personally responsible.Thank you for your direct honesty and fair admission. My respect for you went up 100%. If more ex-JWs could admit their guilt, and not make out the Elders to be a buch of Nazi's, thus shifting blame, but instead take responsibility ... they would heal sooner, and the anger would subside. Thanks again for reaching that conclusion.
You said,
"But, unlike you, I do not hide this truth from myself or offer excuses and justifications.I have not hidden truth, nor offerred excuses. I have tried to express understanding and rational thinking. In my Justice Series, which started in the Summer of 2000 on H20 and repeated here on JWD, I noted my participation in JC's where I was wrong ... and I have withstood scolding by those who assumed I was "justifying" something, when they were not correctly reading what I wrote ... I wrote in historical context ... and even explained this up front ... but they treated me as though I was an Elder today trying to justify myself now. I did not get mad, because I understand, and I do now ... and going to the authorities has not been easy, because whether JWs realize it or not, the Watch Tower Society has ways of hurting people, even after they have been DA'd. I have been privately cautioned to be careful about the WTS knowing where I live ... etc., so, believe me, I have not hidden anything ... but have been very forthcoming here and elsewhere, even at risk to myself.
Regarding my comments about Lee Elder, you said,
"And your strenuous defense, if you will, of his sentiments, given his apparent (and seemingly well-earned --- I am so extremely grateful for his work as I slowly come to learn of it) stature among ex-JWs, came quite as expected. I have lurked long enough to understand some of the local dynamics. I take no offense, I assure you. But even though I am a fringe presence here, I am grateful that I no longer have a gun to my head that demands I lower my eyes when confronting the glitterati --- in the WTS or here or anywhere."I made no strenuous defense of Lee Elder. If you read his comments to me, he took exception with my comments. Were I strenuously 'defending' him, he would not have felt it necessary to take exception with my comments. I merely stated that Lee Elder made some fair points. That is not in any way "strenuous" but only fair.
You stated,
"I believe I, too, “presented fair sentiments in general” and, for the first time in too many years, my own opinion carries as much weight with me as anyone’s "And your opinion should and does carry weight. And it is good that you express it, and debate, and hold your own, and mostly have and use this freedom. And, gievn that you are female, I imagine in many ways, this is even a more treasured position to be in, because the JW religion is sexists to a serious degree. Toward the last few years of being a JW, I taught my daughters to have good self-esteem, get a good education, and not be dependent on men. Not that men are all bad, we are not, but that a women, I believe, should come into a relationship on her own strengths, not 'needing' a man, but equally choosing her male partner on the same level playing field as men, so that their relationship is one of mutal equality. Also, I taught them to stand up fop their opinions and views, and not let men run over them, and to have a career for themselves ... and also it helps in the event their husband dies ... or they get a divorce ... they are able to fend for themselves on their own terms.
That said, I like it when women stand up for themselves and engage in debate, and disagree ... but, I also still stand up too ... debate right back ... and I think it is healthy.
You concluded, [quote}"I do appreciate, though, both yours and LE’s and others’ divergent opinions on this. I just happen to vehemently disagree."[/quote]
I am not sure we are that far apart. I think discussion, debate, and venting some helps clear the air ... and we can learn to understand one another ... and discover that our views are often closer than we realize. Thanks again. - Amazing