For forgetmenot, my concept of god, reposted

by seven006 8 Replies latest jw friends

seven006

Firgetmenot,
Here is a cut and paste of a post where I gave my concept of god. I enjoyed our conversation in chat last night and again, I appreciate your view point. I gave reference to this post but instead of you tracking it down I thought I'd save you the trouble and repost it under its own thread. As I said last night, these are "my" thoughts and not intended to be the absolute or correct views for others.
I hope after reading them you might understand where I was coming from a little better. This post was in response to Yardif's (Friday's) post so it is addressed to him.
Take care
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday,
Your position on this board is blatantly obvious and in many cases you present them in the best logic the JW teachings can allow. What I have seen you and others like you do time and time again is use the logic that points out the inconsistencies of the basic Christian belief in an attempt to discredit them and make the JW version appear correct. In the big picture of things the JW's are no different then the Christians they try to show as having the wrong way of thinking.
Instead of going into a long drawn out scripture quoting post that most people scroll through as quickly as possible to get to the next posters punch line I will simply state my personal measuring rod in trying to accept the existence of god.
My system is simple:
I am an imperfect specimen of human kind. I am a good father and love my three sons with every essence of love that a human can feel and understand. I look at myself to try and understand the possibilities of a god by measuring myself against that possibility and the many explanations of him.
I look at the description of what a belief system uses to describe their god then I compare it to myself and the love I have for my sons. I would NEVER give my sons the ultimate to love me or die. I would never give tell my sons to praise me and give thanks to me every day for giving them life. I would never play games with my sons to trick them or tempt them into doing something I considered wrong. I would never ask my sons to kill someone to defend my honor. I would never ask my sons to kill their own son to prove their love for me. I would never do harm to my sons if they disagree with me.
I make my expectations of my sons clear and direct without trying to have them search for my meaning like a game of hide and seek. I love my sons no matter what they may do wrong. I will NEVER treat my sons as if they are dead simply because they do not agree with me. I will never turn my back on my sons for any reason. I do not get jealous if my sons love their mother (my ex-wife) or their own girlfriends on an equal or higher level than they love me. I teach my son that women are our equals and not our servants to be seen and not heard. I teach them that not all people are alike and they should try to understand the differences as opposed to distancing themselves from them.
I teach my sons that jealousy is a selfish emotion that usually is based on the lack of trust and misunderstandings. I teach my sons that just because a persons parents do wrong things doesn't mean their children have to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. I teach my sons that true love does not have conditions based on selfish insecurities. I teach my sons to look at both sides of an argument and listen to both explanations while not taking one sides version as the absolute truth. I teach my sons to try to understand why people do the things they do by looking at more then their actions but what might have caused those actions. I teach my sons that it is more important to try to understand someone than to judge them by what you do not understand. I teach my sons to reason by logic and understanding not a predetermined belief or obedience by threat. I teach them to be open minded about all thoughts and concepts and use logic and reasoning to make a decision of what to believe.
As I look at my way of showing love and understanding I compare my way and the way a god is explained. If I see selfishness, jealousy, anger, vengeance, manipulation, racism, genocide, childish games, teachings of killing, race supremacy, biological difference profiling, gender discrimination, constant contradiction of thought and actions and an over all love me or die concept, I will not accept that god or the explanation that their god is the real god. I do not base all my thoughts and make all decisions based on those thoughts by the words of one single person, book or concept.
If a god is supposed to be more understanding and loving than an imperfect specimen of human kind then why am I more understand and loving than the description I have read of the god in the bible. I am not god and if there is a god he has to be a lot better to his sons than I am to mine. I just don't see it.
Your acceptance and justification of the concept of a controlling, judgmental, jealous god of armies is what I was referring to. Many religions are of the consensus that a god has to have the ability to hurt and destroy before he can bee seen as all mighty and powerful. That concept my friend is what causes the hurt and destruction of this planet. If you defend it, you emulate it. If you accept it as fact but feel you fall short of its expectations you give up on life and can do even more injurious things to yourself and others than those who believe and follow.
The simple childish comment that my "dad can beat up your dad" is the basic concept of religion. It is not love, it is simply a tool to control others based on manipulation of others insecurities. Just because the bible is filled with one concept of "love your neighbor" prove nothing about it's teaching of love. The obey me or die or god of armies or vengeance is mine sayith the lord negates even the most beautiful explanation it tries to pass off as real love. To love someone because of there perceived physical or spiritual prowess in the ability to protect by the way of violence and destruction is in my opinion a weak stance and an easy way out. To love and follow because of understanding and respect by ones loving actions and wisdom and have strength of understanding and accepting is much more powerful. Brains wins out over brawn every time.
That is what I meant by you not grasping full the concept of what you speak.
Take care,
Dave
refiners fire

indeed.
Having experienced all that God is not (in a horrible religious institution that claims to BE Him) ((Evil manifesting as light))
you are better able to comprehend what He really IS. A glimpse of it anyway. I suspect He is far more compassionate, understanding, than mortal mind can comprehend.
seven006

Humans tend to better understand something if they can relate it to personal experience. Knowing what something is not is based by experiencing what it claims to be and seeing it as wrong. In a lot of ways exJW's have a foot up in the whole journey by knowing what god is not. For myself I have to go along with your comment. If we as humans show more compassion and understanding than a god that is depicted as a destructive and cataclysmic being then that interpretation of that as god, has to be wrong. If it was true, we all would be blood thirsty avengers of his ego. Prisoners that fill the jails of the world emulate the qualities described as the accent god of the Hebrews more than those who are out side of the jails.
If the god described in the bible was a reality, I would count my self as lucky to die and be no part of such a creatures grand plan. I think Barney the purple dinosaur has more love and compassion than the god of the bible. Just look at one who claims to be the anointed by that god, Mr. You Know. He loves to talk about the death of us all and his beloved god rubbing his murderous hands together in anticipation of our deaths. You Know has genocide on the brain, he live for such myths. That's one hell of a loving thought to be expressing in the name of love and justice. What a crock!
Dave
CPiolo

seven006:
Many of the thoughts you describe I had as a teen. My journery away from a Christian point of view began then. So much of religion is based upon fear and punishment that I just couldn't buy it. In my view, the question you ask that gets to the bottom of the issue is: How can so many people manifest more "Christian" qualities than the Christian God? The love you describe for your sons is far more tolerant, compassionate, caring and unconditional than that required by the ancient tribal Hebrew God Yahweh. Your point of view is what I was taught by my Catholic parents as the correct one. The only problem was it didn't mesh with what I was taught about who God was.
Thanks for sharing,
CPiolo
seven006

CPiolo,
Your thoughts about feeling that way as a teenagers is very interesting. There is an old Zen saying:
"The epitome of stupidity is for a man to be searching for the mule he is riding." That is a rather harsh way of saying that what is right for an individual is something that they already know but may not realize it or have not accepted it.
That little inner voice we all have that we here asking us questions like "why did I do that" or "why did I say that" is a voice that most of us not only do not understand but don't listen to. That little voice is one of the keys that if listened to will make us realize that the person we most lie to is ourselves. Even Shakespeare brought out that point by saying : "To thine own self be true". It's a simple concept, but depending a lot on the insecurities of our parents and the direction spiritually speaking that they sent us on we are taught not to listen to our inner self.
After leaving the religion we learn to think for ourselves and we learn that we are not as stupid or unenlightened as we have been told we are or should be. How you felt as a teenager in a spiritual vein was probably right for you. You just listened to other people tell you that your true feelings were wrong.
The religious conflicting descriptions of who god is, is the reason I do not care for religion. For myself I do not need religion to tell me their view of this and that. For others I see where being a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or what ever is the glue that holds their puzzle of life together. What ever it takes to help a person find their happiness in life is good for them. I just have a problem with those who are in those religions who try and make their way everyone's way. Life is not a narrow path nor is it a razors edge. Life is as different for each individual as their finger print. God on the other hand is still an unanswered question for me. I fell there is no hurry to make a decision or write in stone my thoughts about that.
Thanks for you comment, and sorry for rambling on. I need to find a job soon or I'm going to turn into the anti-You Know.
Take care
Dave
CPiolo

seven006:
Yes, listening to that little voice inside is something I become more adept at as time goes on. I find it often is correct and that by not listening to it, I often come to regret it later.
Part of listening to that little voice requires self-examination, something very difficult to do for most of us. A good hard look in the mirror often reveals things we'd prefer not to see. It's easier to look through the colored glasses of our preconceptions and prejudices, not only when examining ourselves, but when looking at others as well.
I am very thankful to my parents for always listening to me and my siblings, for encouraging tolerance and understanding towards others, for an openess to ideas and viewpoints other than ones own, for an environment where discussion and the exchange of ideas was encouraged. I was rarely punished for anything without a thorough (at times I felt a too thorough) explanation of why I was being punished and where my parents were coming from. My parents were by no means perfect, but I think that those lessons were extremely important for me.
You seem to quote Zen often. When I began to drift from my Christian world-view, I began looking at other religious thought and Zen and Taoism have been since that time the closest I can get to anything religious. Frankly, I don't believe in organized religion. And as another Chinese philosopher said, "Life's paths are like the spokes on a wheel; they all lead to the same place."
Good luck with the job search. It's a difficult time. I was in your shoes about nine months ago. Luckily, I found work pretty quickly, but I think it would be far more difficult for me today.
CPiolo
forgetmenot

Hi seven, I just now have read your post. One quick question... Do you read your bible regularly? Now before you get all excited about what will happen when you answer this question, Know that I will not critize it. I have a growing suspicion that the main principle of life (to be nice, because I agree with you on that) comes to us through many different mediums. That is why I have lots of love for different faiths (beliefs, including non-Christian).
I will admit that I do not read my bible regularly. I have not read it since leaving the JW organization. However, I am now beginning to think about reading once more. My ideas of the way everthing works has changed quite a bit. I now have the some new "hypthesis" (hypothesis being a untested theory):
1) The Old Testment was a system of "work for reward". You did certian things to get certain favors (particularly physical) from God.
2) Jesus came to change the way of the system. We are now placed on a different one.
3) This new system is one of love. Love rules everything and controls everything. Nothing can be done without it. Instead of working for physical rewards, you are now finding rewards in the simple pleasure of having "love".
4) Jesus used examples (parables) to make us feel love and how grand it was.
5) The two systems are completely different. Taking scriptures from the Old and the New and mixing, messes up the whole picture. Nothing can be taken out of context. (I have noted that JW's tend to mix scriptures up. When this happens, you get a message that if you go through the routine, you'll be saved (for instance: go to meetings, do not associate with "worldly" people, go out in service...blah, blah, blah). By doing this you miss the whole point, you forget that you are now working for a mental reward and cannot be won by physical means.)
6) The journey is individual/personnal. Their is no group acceptence (for example: join the JW organization and get everlasting life).
However, you do not need to pick up the bible to know that it's all about love. You can look around. You teaching your children the things you did, shows that "love".
However, I have not tested these things and so must set about doing it. Warning: just hypothesis and opinions. Thanks alot for your ideas, your children must be wonderful people if they really digested all that you have tried to teach them.
seven006

CPiolo.
I see by your response that I need to stop quoting Zen so much, I don't want people to think I am preaching eastern philosophy. I have read a lot of Zen philosophy as well as parts of the Upanishads. I like the logic of Zen. I have also read a lot of western religious philosophy. I personally like the way Zen is laid out. I also like a lot of Joseph Campbell's writings as well as a few others like him. I got a big kick out of reading conversations with god, I couldn't stop laughing at the great way Walsh explains things. He makes it sound pretty simple and I liked that. I just got done reading John Edward's "One last time" for yet another perspective. I take what I have read in the religious vein and compare it to what I have read about history, philosophy, psychology, and physics. This way I fell I can get a better picture of the whole ball of wax. I read with an open mind and not a particular religious philosophy to taint my thinking.
Here is a good site to read about the comparisons of Jesus and Buddha. You need to take it with a grain of salt because they are trying to sell a religion but with all the links to non religious selling sites it comes off as fairly credible:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Hinduisms_influence.htm#Introduction
I follow no religious philosophy in my life but more a philosophy of humanity. I respect people for who they are not how or who they pray to. What took me away from fully appreciating anything Christian related is reading Buddhist and Krishnaites stories. I was blown away by the same myths that are said to be exclusive to Jesus but are identical to Buddha. I think most religions are noting more than a distortion of Hinduism and that simply cracks me up. The biggest religion that the others call pagan is the religion that most of their religious philosophy comes from.
I have one solid thought by which I go by in regard to all this religious savior confusion. If you are drowning in a sea of confusion, learn to swim and save yourself.
My thoughts are simple, be nice and try to understand as much as you can about as much as you can. After that, take a vacation. I am in my vacation mode in life now. You make some great points and I think you have your head screwed on fairly well.
Dave
Forgetmenot,
No, I do not read my bible regularly because I do not own one. I have read it before, I know what it says. Thanks for the comments about my kids, I think they are fairly well adjusted people. They are older and are using some good thinking techniques to figure out their path in life. My youngest is 16 and my oldest is 23 I am proud of them.
It sounds like you have a good grasp on things and that you are well on your way to figuring out what works for you. That is the key to the whole big mystery. I enjoyed talking to you in chat and look forward to doing it again. I do have to warn you, if you try to squeeze me again I'll beat you up, Just kidding.
Take care and keep on keeping on.
Dave
CPiolo

Dave:
No worries about the Zen quotes. I enjoy them. They seem to get to the crux of the matter with out so much of the extra baggage the Abrahamic faiths tend to add on. And I think you've made it pretty clear your not preaching anything to anybody other than treating each other with respect.
I enjoy Joseph Campbell as well. Your right that reading about a variety of disciplines gives one a more well rounded viewpoint and better insight into all that makes up and influences religious thought.
I checked out the link -- interesting. I've read other similar things and skimmed through a book that listed parallel sayings of Buddha and Jesus, very striking in their similarities. The Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas sounds very much like Buddha. We know that there was contact between Middle Eastern, European, and Indo-Asian cultures, so there has to have been some influence. The extent of that influence may be hard to discern, but is an interesting field of study. It is, as you say, a crack-up and quite ironic that all these "great" religions share so much yet adherents (with a few notable exceptions -- Ghandi, Huston Smith, Tich Nhat Hanh come to mind) can't find the middle common ground, but instead look for that which distinguishes their group in order to diminish those of a different ilk. They've been and continue to kill each other over these differences, even within the same faith. George Carlin comes to mind when I think about it. He thinks we're probably doomed as a species, but he's enjoying the show while it lasts.
CPiolo

For forgetmenot, my concept of god, reposted

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