Resurrection of the dead, JWs and 1 Corinthians 15

by Chalam 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chalam

  From

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/181048/4/Did-Jesus-ever-claim-Messiahship

  Stephen, I really enjoy seeing different interpretations of the scriptures. Keep on doing what you do, man.

  I want to know what you mean by your post. Did Jesus have to be raised as a human first? I don't want to hijack Jeff's thread--can we start a new one to discuss this?

  OK here goes. Just to recap, JW knock on your door and preach that Jesus was raised only as a "spirit creature" and his body "dematerialised" some other kooky non biblical thing.

  Firstly, they miss this verse which is loud and clear against this doctrine

  Luke 24:39 (English Standard Version)

  39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

  Also this verse

  Luke 24:41-43 (New International Version)

  41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

  Obviously, they think Jesus eating was an optical illusion. As it is, it is the same thing that the girl Jesus raised from the dead was, physically hungry Mark 5:43 Luke 8:55

  They might lead you on a game of bible ping pong 1 Corinthians 15:50 and talk about angels coming to earth and such as happened to me.

  OK on with this passage

  1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (New International Version)

  The Resurrection of the Dead

  12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

  That was my question to the two JWs sat in my house. How could they claim that Christ was not resurrected as the bible shows, physically. 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. As per their "spirit creature", no physical body claim. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. Fairly poignant! I wasn't so rude as to point that out directly but I did read the verse and hope the Holy Spirit would convict them. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. Yes the "Witnesses" are false witnesses as Paul proves, no resurrection as the bible clearly says regarding Christ, no hope. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. Paul makes it clear, no resurrection for Christ, no hope for anyone. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Being a JW is futile, they are still in their sins and cannot stop, the testimonies here show that clearly. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. No resurrection, no hope for dead JWs (or those alive). 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. Another poignant remark!

  20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

  A quick side note for the erroneous "firstborn" WT doctrine, yes Christ is the firstborn amongst many brothers, not in the chronological sense (Christ wasn't born physically before Adam) and the "firstborn" from the dead.

  Notice too the bible here called those who are dead "asleep", just like the girl Jesus raised (physically) Matthew 9:24 Mark 5:39 Luke 8:52 or Lazarus John 11:11

  21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

  Jesus was fully man (but fully God) and thus resurrection is through Him (alone).

  22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

  We are all in Adam and die. However, those that are "in Christ" have their part in the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6 , the resurrection of the righteous Luke 14:14

  I asked the JWs if they were "in Christ". I got a blank look. Strange as the term appears over 100 times in the New Testament.

  Hope that helps bluecanary?

  All the best, Stephen
• 

  Sad emo

  I asked the JWs if they were "in Christ". I got a blank look. Strange as the term appears over 100 times in the New Testament.

  Probably because the NWT translates these instances as "in union with Christ" - a completely different concept grammatically. In Christ suggests oneness/intimacy/being a part of, whereas in union with Christ merely suggests being in agreement with but a seperate entity. Hence the confused looks!
• 

  cameo-d

  41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

  Obviously, they think Jesus eating was an optical illusion. As it is, it is the same thing that the girl Jesus raised from the dead was, physically hungry Mark 5:43 Luke 8:55

  So who can you believe?
• 

  Chalam

  Good point Sad emo! The words "union with" are added and a miss translation. They do not appear in the Greek at all, take this example

  Romans 12:5 (New International Version)

  5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

  ?ν Χριστ?,

  in Christ

  The NWT does not even have the decency to put the square brackets to show the words have been added.

  so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Chalam

  Cameo, where do you get this stuff?!

  Jesus was a Jew and observed the law. That means plenty of meat all round. Check out your old testament.

  Next thing someone will be saying He was a pastafarian :(

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  bluecanary

  Thanks for posting this Stephen. Those first couple of scriptures do seem to indicate that Jesus was raised in the flesh. It's one of those things I never put any thought into as a JW.

  I'm confused about the rest of it. If Jesus wasn't raised in the flesh, that might be a killing blow to the teaching that humans will be resurrected to earth. But if you believe that the reward for all Christians is resurrection to heaven, what does it matter if Jesus was resurrected as a spirit? Being raised as a spirit doesn't seem to negate the prospect of others being raised as spirits. Or do I have an incorrect understanding of the heavenly hope?

  Did the girl that Jesus raised go to heaven? Is there a waiting period where someone is "asleep" first? Did people not start going to heaven until Jesus died? Who is part of the second resurrection? Why is it split into different resurrections?

  I'm totally lost on the firstborn thing It sounds like you're saying that when the Bible refers to Jesus as the firstborn, that is referring specifically to him being the first raised from the dead--but that doesn't make any sense because others were resurrected in the old testament. Unless he was the first resurrected to heaven. Can you clarify this, please?

  If you had asked me if I was "in Christ" I would have given you a blank look and stammered out something about being followers of Christ. I was definitely ingrained with the feeling that all that touchy-feely Jesus stuff was . . . icky. We were told that Jesus was supposed to be our friend, but I didn't see how he could be. It's definitely interesting to see him in a new light.
• 

  JosephMalik

  I'm totally lost on the firstborn thing It sounds like you're saying that when the Bible refers to Jesus as the firstborn, that is referring specifically to him being the first raised from the dead--but that doesn't make any sense because others were resurrected in the old testament. Unless he was the first resurrected to heaven. Can you clarify this, please?

  Bluecanary,

  I pondered this same problem over 30 years ago and came to understand what happened at the resurrection after carefully listening to the texts on tape. Resurrection under New Testament rules is not the same as it was with the resurrection of the others you mentioned. Why? Because anyone resurrected under New Testament rules while still human, would be immortal. Paul make this clear enough when He corrected Corinthian thinking and this would be true for anyone raised for any reason. The seed we sow is human and will be raised human. Now was Jesus not raised a little early as an immortal human for such rules to take effect? No for Jesus gave up his non-human seed or life to begin with and could get it back. Furthermore He gained immortality as a human before He died so it did not matter for Him. His resurrection was the first of such future immortal human resurrections promised for the rest of us. This is also the very reason why all humanity raised by Him would now qualify to be immortal. He regained what Adam lost when he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. The thinking goes according to its Kind, like for like, the purpose of the tree of life in the first place with its intended use and such teachings of the past that apply to us as humans. How this immortality happened and when is another discussion but I put it at His transfiguration. That is the only event during His ministry that seems to fit.

  But I must add that there is another detail that made all this confusing to me. What? The resurrection of Jesus as the non-human He was before He became flesh and known as the Word or Logos. Or put another way, the resurrection the life and Nature of the one now known as Jesus as the God and creator of us that was appointed over us by God Himself in the beginning of the human race as John testified in John 1:1. Nothing unusual about using the expression God in this way by Jews as the scriptures did it in several places and it does not make two true God’s or Supreme Beings but everyone seems to have a fit over it. It was not everyday or frequent use and many did not grasp it even back then. So what did happen in the special case of Jesus? Well God answered His prayer when Jesus prayed: John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. This is what happened then at that time. As the Logos or Word was now made alive once again, and as the creator of the human race given him, it was no problem for this Word to raise the body that was executed and take on both Natures seamlessly in order to fulfill the tasks still assigned to Him. We still refer to Jesus as fully human and He will return as a human to raise the dead and rule as testified to in Acts 1, but we also see the Nature of the non-human that appeared to Paul and chose Paul to be his Apostle to the Jews and Gentiles so as not to confuse this event with His coming again as a man. I decided to call this the hypostasis nature of Christ as the generic meaning of this Trinitarian term fits. And since we had no such prior seed or life this dual nature does not apply to us. Further details of how this could be are simply not make known to us other but the reality of it was explained in scripture as brought out in this thread.

  Joseph
• 

  Chalam

  Hi BC,

  Been away for a few days so just getting a chance to get back to you.

  Thanks for posting this Stephen. Those first couple of scriptures do seem to indicate that Jesus was raised in the flesh. It's one of those things I never put any thought into as a JW.

  Cool, my pleasure. Unfortunately the WT spoon feed you all their food and if you bring anything up they call you an apostate! Their food leaves you empty and hungry and worse still, sick and dying.

  I'm confused about the rest of it. If Jesus wasn't raised in the flesh, that might be a killing blow to the teaching that humans will be resurrected to earth .

  That was Paul point. Without the resurrection of Jesus it is all a waste of time.

  But if you believe that the reward for all Christians is resurrection to heaven, what does it matter if Jesus was resurrected as a spirit? Being raised as a spirit doesn't seem to negate the prospect of others being raised as spirits. Or do I have an incorrect understanding of the heavenly hope?

  OK, forgive my directness, forget resurrection being a reward, the eternal life on offer is a free gift, never a reward. Take the free gift first and then do the works God calls you to afterwards when the time comes. Doing the works actually will have some rewards 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Matthew 6:4 Colossians 3:24 but the life itself is for free.

  We cannot earn the grace of God. That is "legalism" (Ephesians 2 for example). Any work we do is under that grace, not to earn favour. Earning favour is absurd when you think about who God is, the Creator of the universe! Does He need anything we can give Him? Highly unlikely. Does He deeply desire our love? Certainly. I have the same situation with my kids. They can't give me anything I need but I desire their love.

  As I was writing this my two year old fell and hurt himself. I ran to him by instinct. That is how it is with us. We have fallen and hurt ourselves. God has run to us. However, He doesn't force us to receive His love and His offer of help. He is waiting there with outstretched arms to life us up and embrace us.

  OK "heavenly hope". Forgive me, once again but that is JW speak and brings with it the connotations of a two-class believer. There is one faith, one baptism etc, not two Ephesians 4:4-6, one flock, one shepherd not two John 10:16

  If I die today I will go to heaven. See what Paul writes here.

  Philippians 1:21-24 (New International Version)

  21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

  Paul says when he leaves the world he will be with Christ. We know Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven. Obviously Paul is there now too, as is every other believer Hebrews 11 Jesus says the same Luke 23:43

  At some point, Jesus will return to earth and all the dead will be raised to life John 5:28 Daniel 12:2, the righteous Revelation 20:5-7 and the unrighteous Jude 1:7 , the saved and the condemned Matthew 25:46

  OK, where will I be then?

  Revelation 21:1-4 (New International Version)

  The New Jerusalem

  1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." God will "dwell with men" in heaven? No, the dwelling (the "New Jerusalem", the "Holy City") comes down "out of heaven", see verse 2 and Revelation 21:10 to the "new earth". Who will be in heaven? Not God because He is on earth in the New Jerusalem living with all those who are saved "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them".

  Did the girl that Jesus raised go to heaven?

  OK the bible does not tell us. Either she lived a normal life and then died like the rest of us or she never died and went to heaven. My guess is the former but that could leave an issue with this verse Hebrews 9:27 I wouldn't get too bogged down with the issue. I think the best thing is to read what Jesus has to say about the issue of the resurrection John 11 Pay special attention to verse 25 and 26. Clearly one of the lives that Jesus refers to is physical and one not. Similarly, one of the death is physical and one not or what He is talking about does not make any sense.

  Here are some verses on the resurrection body

  1 Corinthians 15:42 (New International Version)

  42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

  Philippians 3:18-21 (New International Version)

  18 For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

  Romans 6:9 (New International Version)

  9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

  Is there a waiting period where someone is "asleep" first?

  The 'asleep' description is what Jesus used Himself for the dead. They are elsewhere, not conscious of this world or anything "under the sun" as Solomon described it

  Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)

  5 For the living know that they will die,
  but the dead know nothing;
  they have no further reward,
  and even the memory of them is forgotten.

  6 Their love, their hate
  and their jealousy have long since vanished;
  never again will they have a part
  in anything that happens under the sun.

  Did people not start going to heaven until Jesus died?

  Not according to Hebrews 11. Everyone who had faith was justified and is up there, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, my mother etc.

  Who is part of the second resurrection?

  I have pondered this question. For sure there are two resurrections an the first one is a good one Revelation 20:4-6

  Are those "blessed" who are part of the second resurrection or only those who are cursed? I am not sure of the answer. For sure it is not good for some.

  Revelation 20:12-15 (New International Version)

  12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  Why is it split into different resurrections?

  This could be wrong but my feeling is the first resurrection is for the righteous and the second for the unrighteous Daniel 12:2 Certainly, the first is for righteous only. The verses about leave the option for the saved as well as the unsaved in the second resurrection but we are considering something which isn't really the core issue.

  What is important is how is one going to be judged, "in Christ" or under our own merits. Are we saved or condemned? Are we justified or not? Are we under grace or under the law? Are we new creations or "the flesh" (sinful nature)?

  I'm totally lost on the firstborn thing It sounds like you're saying that when the Bible refers to Jesus as the firstborn, that is referring specifically to him being the first raised from the dead--but that doesn't make any sense because others were resurrected in the old testament. Unless he was the first resurrected to heaven. Can you clarify this, please?

  Jesus is first to receive His "imperishable body". Those that were resurrected to their perishable body likely died (in the Old Testament and New). Believers that receive the imperishable body will go to everlasting life. The unbelievers that are resurrected to everlasting death i.e. the second death Isaiah 66:24 Mark 9:47-49 Luke 16:19-31

  If you had asked me if I was "in Christ" I would have given you a blank look and stammered out something about being followers of Christ. I was definitely ingrained with the feeling that all that touchy-feely Jesus stuff was . . . icky. We were told that Jesus was supposed to be our friend, but I didn't see how he could be. It's definitely interesting to see him in a new light.

  Awesome! Jesus is all that counts John 14:6 Revelation 3:20 John 12:46 John 15

  All the best,

  Stephen